Self-worth, achievement, and having kids

[Robert Maxwell]

I don't know if this topic will be particularly controversial, but I'm interested in hearing what the rest of you have to say about it.

Quite a few members here have kids, including me. However, one aspect of that which I've never been able to relate to are people who say things like, "having kids is the only thing I've ever done in my life that means anything," or "children are the only legacy I will ever contribute to this world," etc. I don't get that at all. To me, it's like saying, "I couldn't accomplish anything with my own life, so I'm going to have kids and pass the buck to them, giving them all the expectations I wasn't able to fulfill." It seems selfish and unfair to your children.

But I don't know, maybe I am just reading it wrong.

I am glad that I had kids, and I hope they make a positive contribution to the world, and I am trying to raise them so that they do, but I try not to hold any illusions that they are going to make up for whatever I didn't accomplish myself--there are still things I want to accomplish in my life, and I sure don't expect them to do it for me, so I can vicariously take pride in it.

But what do the rest of you guys think? Am I being too hard on the "being a parent is the only worthwhile thing I've ever done" crowd?

 

[137th Gebirg]

I would personally disagree with the sentiment of "being a parent is the only worthwhile thing I've ever done", but I understand those who do. I'm 42 and have just recently become a first-time parent 2 months ago. I personally feel like I've already accomplished a lot earlier on in my life, despite many setbacks and would never think to define my existence on the existence of another. I just see my daughter as the next step of my own personal development as a human being.

On the one hand, I recognize the great potential in my daughter, who is just past 2 months and now doing things that apparently most "experts" believe should be done in the 4-month range. It is gratifying to know that my bloodline will continue, if not my name (I'm more interested in the former than the latter, anyway - I'm kind of ancient-traditional like that) but on the other hand, I know I can leave this world knowing that I played my part in various aspects and will be remembered for it (award-winning website, Masonic involvement, reenacting, etc.), for at least a little while, anyway.

If some people think that their lives have not amounted to much existentially and that parenting is their one true calling, then that's awesome! They finally found what makes them happy and I'm glad for them for it. I can't imagine going all the way through life never having felt like I had done anything worth while. I think everyone needs something to be able to proudly say, "I did that!", either with a skyscraper that lasts 200 years or a bloodline that lasts 1000.

 

[Deckerd]

Sometimes it's all they've got. I've seen that a lot, especially with women. My daughter's been away from home for 10 years now and she has her own life. I like to see her and I talk to her a lot but to be honest I don't think about her much from day to day. That doesn't mean I don't love her, it's just that life goes on and there's so much still to be done.

 

[Ood Sigma]

Yeah, I don't get it either.

I don't have kids and I'm happy to keep it that way. It's funny because I think I'd be a good parent, but I just don't have the desire to be one. I have definitely run across people who feel like having children is the only thing that matters. Heck, my parents are that way - they don't understand why I don't have any especially since I've been married for so long. At least they've learned that it's not a subject I enjoy talking about.

I suppose that for most people having kids is an instinctual desire, but it does make me sad to see people totally subsume who they are to focus on having kids. It's a big responsibility but you can still be you. We have lost friendships with people who suddenly don't have time for anyone who doesn't have a kid.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

This is an issue that I struggle with quite a bit, to be honest. I don't have children yet, but I rather desperately want them at some point in the future. A large part of that desire is due to viewing parenthood as a means of ensuring my life is worthwhile, by ensuring I can see myself as having made a positive contribution to others. I can know I'm living my life providing an essential service, to at least one other being. I'm sometimes frightened that I won't live up to my high expectations of the role; worried that I won't be a worthy parent, that I won't have any useful skills or wisdom to offer my children, won't be a stable presence, won't be able to establish a foundation that allows their happiness and prosperity in later life. I'm sure it's a natural desire to take stock of your own life and want to give the best of yourself and your positive experiences to your children, while shielding them from the negative - but in my case I've long had the sense that I need to "make up for my life" by guiding another, and I suppose it is to some degree a "take two" on my own childhood. I would emphasise, though, that I certainly don't see my potential children as substitutes - I'm not saying I see their lives as an opportunity for me to go through life again, as if hijacking them, but rather that I can experience a better childhood from a different but equally important position - that of the person on whom the child depends.

I do indeed see it in terms of "blancing the scales", that I can make up for waste and unhappiness in my own life by ensuring they are happy, and thus make my own existence meaningful through what I can do for them. It's not about children "taking up the slack" but rather about channeling my efforts into guiding some other young soul towards a life that was more rewarding than mine. It's about tipping the balance towards the positive - the need to leave the world more stable and rewarding than you entered it, the need to ensure your positive contributions outweight the negative. Helping another being grow into its sapience and take its place in the world with happiness, security and self-assurance is the most sacred contribution there is - children need their parents, and you shape and influence them in ways that you probably don't even realize, often without any particular intention. Any life that provides a stable, loving, encouraging foundation for another life to build on is automatically meaningful; it is, after all, through how we enable and assist others that we find our worth.

As for children making up for the disappointments in your own life, by accomplishing what you didn't, and living vicariously through them...I agree it has the potential to be selfish - indeed, I've always found it distasteful when I believe parents are using their children as extensions of their own ego, and fail to recognize that they're dealing with a distinct soul. You shouldn't put pressure on your children to accomplish anything in particular - the issue is finding worth not through what they're doing but through what you're doing to support and encourage them, so they have the opportunity to accomplish whatever it is they decide to. Indeed, you can't find worth in your role as a parent if you're not aware of the need to relate to the child as a distinct being; you're in symbiosis with them, after all.

I am aware that parenthood might well not actually solve the problem in terms of a sense of achievement - my sister recently told me that she remembers her childhood as a wonderful time largely because I was there throughout it all, so I've already been in the position of making other lives worthwhile through my presence, and it hasn't given me any particular sense of self-worth yet. Though possibly that was because I was a child myself, and when I'm conscious of what I'm providing I might be happier for it.

Perhaps, too, by the time I actually have children I will have achieved some degree of self-esteem that will have reduced my desire or need to find worth through parenthood, and perhaps that will actually make me more effective as a parent. Indeed, if I'm in the position where I'm comfortable enough in life and in a long-term relationship to have stated a family I might well already have achieved enough or felt like I've done enough to feel my life had been worthwhile.

There's also the understanding that my perspectives on self-worth and accomplishment are warped due to mental illness, which I'm aware of but not often able to overcome.

 

[Gaith]

Am I being too hard on the "being a parent is the only worthwhile thing I've ever done" crowd?

I think you've got it about right.

But then, I've heard that "most men live lives of quiet desperation."

 

[Sector 7]

I always knew I'd raise children... it was a given. However, I always wanted to adopt and give a child a home who needed one. IRL, that is exactly what happened. I raised my sister's son and daughter [long story there]. It is very rewarding to know that I helped shape their lives. Hopefully, I gave them the wisdom and guidance they deserved.

In my niece's case, she calls me and comes home [yes, she calls wherever I am HOME... and it pleases me no end]. Often she calls me for advice or to just tell me what is happening in her life. I must have done OK raising her, because she asks me for advice on raising her own children.

For me, it wasn't about "It's the only worthwhile thing...". It was a bonus. I accomplished several things at a young age, but I wanted to pass them along to an heir, rather than make up for something I lacked.

 

[JoeZhang]

On a parallel track, when people tell me that school was the best days of their life, I have to wonder what went wrong with their lives.

 

[Sector 7]

On a parallel track, when people tell me that school was the best days of their life, I have to wonder what went wrong with their lives.

I have to agree with you on that one.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

On a parallel track, when people tell me that school was the best days of their life, I have to wonder what went wrong with their lives.

Same here. If you peaked in high school or college, what the fuck have you been doing with your life??

 

[137th Gebirg]

On a parallel track, when people tell me that school was the best days of their life, I have to wonder what went wrong with their lives.

I felt this way for a long time and, in many ways, I still do. I don't consider my life a failure by any stretch, although I know that things could have been different and potentially better if I made different choices. However, I chose not to dwell on the "what if's" of the past, as it does me absolutely no good at present, nor at shaping my future, with the exception of recognizing said failures of the past, trying to learn from them in order to make my future better. In the end, that's all the past is really good for, IMHO.

To answer your question directly, schools provide a nice and relatively antiseptic little bubble in which you can grow and thrive, with minimal responsibility. You can observe and express your views in relative freedom, explore concepts philosophically, learn how to generate and perpetuate meaningful relationships and try to take that small handful of years to prepare for the rest of your life.

Once you enter the real world, however (as most people I'm sure could attest), unless you're REALLY lucky, you will find yourself in the daily grind job of working for people who are generally unappreciative of your efforts and approach you with the feeling that "You should be happy to have a job in this economy, kid. Shut up and do what you're told or don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out!" Not much room for personal growth and development in that kind of environment. Many of us enter the workforce erroneously thinking that this little piece of paper we've earned with the word "Degree" printed in gold leaf at the top somehow entitles us to success and happiness. At the very least, we think it's a golden key to open our first door with relative ease into our chosen vocation. All too quickly do we realize that nobody really cares what anyone else thinks and that it's really hard work just to get by and scrape out a living. It was that way in the early 90's when I entered the workforce for the first time; I cannot imagine how completely fucked up things are now for someone fresh out of school trying to launch their career. Pretty much everyone is forced to quickly learn the greatest lesson they've ever known and some simply withdraw into themselves because of it: "Life is full of disappointments."

So, yeah, school was the best time of my life up til now. Having a kid recently, though, does tend to change the whole dynamic.

 

[Shanndee]

On a parallel track, when people tell me that school was the best days of their life, I have to wonder what went wrong with their lives.

I have to agree with you on that one.

In the case of one of my friends (a woman in her early 50's) it was becoming a parent that had the above outcome. She got pregnant when she was just graduating from high school at 18. Needless to say, being a single mother with no decent job prospects led to high school being the only time in her life when she had fun.

She later got married and had another child. She's fairly happy now, but most of her "fun" stories are still centred around school. She is starting to talk about taking some part time night classes, which I hope she does. It would be nice to see her do something that was just or her for a change.

 

[T'Bonz]

I don't worry about stuff like this. For those who think children were their highest achievement, cool. For those who think some other thing (work or another life achievement) was it, cool.

I've never got into the child wars in which some seem to engage. I love kids and for me, they are my big achievement and I'm proud of how mine turned out.

But I realize for some, even those with kids, they feel other things in their lives were more important and that's fine.

My youngest intends to remain childless (alas for grandchildren there) so I see the "other side's" attitude and while it's personally foreign to me, it's perfectly valid.

 

[Rhaven]

Having children just seemed like the right thing to do for my husband and I. We met in college and married after he returned from the Marines. Now that Jim has passed on, the kids are his legacy. I'm sure they will distiguish themselves in their own time but it eases the loss to see Jim's eyes in Sara and hear his laugh from Bill.

 

[doubleohfive]

I used to really want to be a parent. I've been very lucky with regard to family in my life. And even though we've had our issues, we've always gotten through them and stuck together.

However, being on my own, going from relationship to relationship, I've learned to simply detach myself from the idea of kids and a family until its presented to me. I certainly would like to have a family someday, but I'll be just fine, I think, if I don't.

That being said, I have also detached myself from this idea that having kids "is the only meaningful thing I'll ever do." I think it's somewhat silly, and frankly, there's a whole lot of things I plan on accomplishing in my life in addition to someday being a good husband and father.

 

[sidious618]

If someone thinks being a parent is they only accomplished thing they've done then they're probably not great parents. If their entire life was a failure how could they possible be able to raise someone in a fashion that would enable them to survive in the world? Would they just tell them, "Always do the opposite of me!"?

I, personally, have never wanted children.

 

[Kestra]

I don't know if this topic will be particularly controversial, but I'm interested in hearing what the rest of you have to say about it.

Quite a few members here have kids, including me. However, one aspect of that which I've never been able to relate to are people who say things like, "having kids is the only thing I've ever done in my life that means anything," or "children are the only legacy I will ever contribute to this world," etc. I don't get that at all. To me, it's like saying, "I couldn't accomplish anything with my own life, so I'm going to have kids and pass the buck to them, giving them all the expectations I wasn't able to fulfill." It seems selfish and unfair to your children.

Well, this isn't specifically about children, but maybe a slightly different perspective. I've long felt that my talents lay best in supporting other people. That's not to say that I'm not intelligent and capable of doing much on my own. But I think in a larger sense of "How am I the most useful to society?" I'd say the answer is "In supporting others." To that end, I understand how having and raising children could be viewed as a great contribution by some people.

Personally I'm struggling with the very real possibility that I will never have children. My life is in chaos at the moment and none of the possibilities ahead are particularly appealing. I'm sure that a large part of my desire to have children is just down to biology, and I know that I can (and will) accomplish a lot without that particular goal checked off. I'm trying to find ways to cope with the whole children thing.

 

[SonOfMogh]

It's just something people say without thinking about the implications of what they're saying. They hear it as "I'm an awesome parent and I love my kid more than anyone loves theirs" and want to get that message out there when they see the opportunity.

If they took a step back and listened to the words they're saying, they would realise it sounds a bit pathetic.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I don't know if this topic will be particularly controversial, but I'm interested in hearing what the rest of you have to say about it.

Quite a few members here have kids, including me. However, one aspect of that which I've never been able to relate to are people who say things like, "having kids is the only thing I've ever done in my life that means anything," or "children are the only legacy I will ever contribute to this world," etc. I don't get that at all. To me, it's like saying, "I couldn't accomplish anything with my own life, so I'm going to have kids and pass the buck to them, giving them all the expectations I wasn't able to fulfill." It seems selfish and unfair to your children.

Well, this isn't specifically about children, but maybe a slightly different perspective. I've long felt that my talents lay best in supporting other people. That's not to say that I'm not intelligent and capable of doing much on my own. But I think in a larger sense of "How am I the most useful to society?" I'd say the answer is "In supporting others." To that end, I understand how having and raising children could be viewed as a great contribution by some people.

For some reason if you list your kids as the most important thing you've ever done you get looked at as a loser. But if you're, say, a nurse and you list caring for your patients as the most important thing you've ever done people all nod and say nice things.

There's a societal freak out going on about not making kids and parenting more important than the individual because that sounds like women in the 1950's. No choices, your lot in life.

Personally I think relationships are the most important accomplishment in my life. I have had all kinds of jobs and I couldn't give a shit about any of them. I've lived in several countries, achieved financial security, and learned how to do many diverse things very well. Volunteered. Accomplished goals. But the thing I am most proud of is of having a fantastic relationship with my young adult children. I had them very young, we had some hard times, my own parents were terrible parents. To have my daughter ring me up for boyfriend advice, take time off work to do things with me.. I know that these relationships with my own children will be the primary relationships of my life until I die. I'll be an old lady someday and I'll not be looking back at jobs and achievements, I'll be looking at the next generation that I have somehow managed to raise into functional loving adults and who are my legacy because they will be here when I'm gone. And hopefully they will be great parents to their own children.

So yes, my children are the most important thing I've ever done in life and, frankly, the most interesting. You don't retire from relationships like you do from careers so they had better be meaningful.

 

[SonOfMogh]

So yes, my children are the most important thing I've ever done in life and, frankly, the most interesting. You don't retire from relationships like you do from careers so they had better be meaningful.

My kids are by far the most important think I've ever done in life too, but the topic specifically relates to those who say they're the only important thing they've ever done. As you pointed out there's more to you than just kids.