Spoilers Section 31 General Discussion Thread

[Noname Given]

Let's play 6 degrees of decanonization!

Lower Decks decanonizes Discovery...

Faulty premise to begin with.

The fact that we see 23rd century 'Discovery Klingons' coming out of that Multi-Dimensional rift and then shifting doesn't decnoninze anything.

By the episodes own internal logic when the U.S.S. Cerritos got closer to the event horizon of the rift, it was shifting into all sorts of other versions. Plus the previous episode (still part of the same story) had a young looking (22ns century) T'Pol on a 24th century ship.

Thus yeah, the premise is faulty.

23rd century Discovery looking Klingons still exist as do TOS TV series looking Klingons.

Nothing was decannonized in the Prime Universe.

 

[Nerys Myk]

According to the Internet Alex Kurtzman has been fired 5 times to date, but somehow refuses to leave and hasn't been escorted off the lot or stopped working on new Star Trek productions.

There was a new Kurtzman is fired video in my feed a few days ago. I just laughed.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

There was a new Kurtzman is fired video in my feed a few days ago. I just laughed.

Did he also punch a TV again? I think that one's my favorite nonsensical I-Post-Hateful-Videos-For-Clicks YouTuber claim ever.

 

[The Wormhole]

Did he also punch a TV again? I think that one's my favorite nonsensical I-Post-Hateful-Videos-For-Clicks YouTuber claim ever.

Punch a TV? Pfft, that's nothing. I remember a guy back when Enterprise was on the air who claimed he threw a brick at his TV over the fact that Enterprise was doing a Borg episode.

Today's Haters aren't even half as entertaining as the Haters of twenty years ago.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

What proceeded was a solid 20 minutes of them gleefully declaring Discovery and SNW to be removed from the canon thanks to Lower Decks. It may have went on, I switched it off. The sound of machines blaring in my ears is a better alternative.

I mean, these assholes call themselves experts? Yet they willfully ignore things from the very fucking episode they're going nuts over? Nevermind the mountain of evidence from other sources?

You got me curious about this so I checked it out myself. You're right about them being gleeful about the idea of Discovery being in another universe and you're also right about them not even contemplating the possibility that Disco Klingons existed in the Prime Timeline as well. They just jump right to their conclusions and start celebrating the win.

But all their negativity is along the lines of "We didn't like the choices they made for Disco", not "You shouldn't like Disco", and they're very happy about the idea of Disco existing in the Star Trek multiverse like the Kelvin universe does.

 

[HotRod]

You got me curious about this so I checked it out myself. You're right about them being gleeful about the idea of Discovery being in another universe and you're also right about them not even contemplating the possibility that Disco Klingons existed in the Prime Timeline as well. They just jump right to their conclusions and start celebrating the win.

But all their negativity is along the lines of "We didn't like the choices they made for Disco", not "You shouldn't like Disco", and they're very happy about the idea of Disco existing in the Star Trek multiverse like the Kelvin universe does.

It's just funny to me that people who declare themselves to be experts are willing to go all in on the idea based solely on a 5 second joke, but will ignore the many other examples that are contrary to their desire that Discovery and its spin-offs be summarily removed from the canon.

It's willful ignorance.

I also don't appreciate the tone in which they gleefully declare that anying after 2009* is basically unworthy of being in their exclusive club. Gatekeeping at its finest.

It still bothers me that it's elements of the fandom like these idiots that Terry Matalas chose to cuddle up with.





*except Picard season 3, of course. Though I guess they've suddenly become Lower Decks fans.

 

[Citiprime]

It's just funny to me that people who declare themselves to be experts are willing to go all in on the idea based solely on a 5 second joke, but will ignore the many other examples that are contrary to their desire that Discovery and its spin-offs be summarily removed from the canon.

It's willful ignorance.

I also don't appreciate the tone in which they gleefully declare that anying after 2009* is basically unworthy of being in their exclusive club. Gatekeeping at its finest.

It still bothers me that it's elements of the fandom like these idiots that Terry Matalas chose to cuddle up with.





*except Picard season 3, of course. Though I guess they've suddenly become Lower Decks fans.

Here's the issue, I don't think there's anything definitive to declare Discovery and SNW are off in their own quantum reality. But that scene from Lower Decks DOES open up the possibility, especially since Mike McMahan did NOT shut down that speculation and was quite clear in leaving it open to the interpretation of the fans.

Also:

• DSC's version of the Klingons are not seen in any other version of Trek beyond Lower Decks, where they're implied to be from different quantum reality.
• A spore drive that hasn't been referenced in any other Trek that doesn't have any direct connection to DSC.
• SNW arguably acknowledges that it exists in an altered timeline with "Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow" that is NOT the Prime Timeline.
• SNW has a version of the Gorn that in no way tracks with TOS.
• The crossover between Lower Decks and SNW can be explained as the portal allowing travel between both universes and time.
• The fact that certain events are referenced in Discovery is not proof that it exists in the Prime Timeline. Arguably, it exists in a timeline that's similar but not exactly the same.
• Also, the dialogue in Lower Decks about how the fissure works in "The New Next Generation" states the Discovery Klingons that appear in the episode are from a different quantum reality.

FEDERATION SCIENTIST: "The rift itself is easily sealed with a subspace gluonic beam."

FEDERATION ADMIRAL "The problem is getting to it. The rift is surrounded by a Schrödinger possibility field."

CAPTAIN FREEMAN: "A what?"

FEDERATION SCIENTIST: "The S-field completely remaps matter into other possibilities from the multiverse."

Finally, at worst, no one is saying that Discovery or Strange New Worlds would no longer be Star Trek. All people are saying is that it would exist in its own continuity, where they can do their own thing. And if people wanted to continue Star Trek in the 25th century, they wouldn't be tied down to the "The Burn" or any of the choices made by Discovery or Starfleet Academy for the 32nd century.

Moreover, beyond all of the canon/continuity arguments, just leave those to the side for a moment. I think it says a lot that the elements of Discovery's first season are now seen as so ridiculous that they're literally jokes in other parts of the franchise. I mean what are people here so vociferously protecting? A version of the Klingons and Star Trek that were so universally hated that the people in charge went into instant backtrack mode because of the backlash? That's what you're defending to stay in the Prime Timeline?

 

[Firebird]

Here's the issue, I don't think there's anything definitive to declare Discovery and SNW are off in their own quantum reality. But that scene from Lower Decks DOES open up the possibility, especially since Mike McMahan did NOT shut down that speculation and was quite clear in leaving it open to the interpretation of the fans.

Also:

• DSC's version of the Klingons are not seen in any other version of Trek beyond Lower Decks, where they're implied to be from different quantum reality.
• A spore drive that hasn't been referenced in any other Trek that doesn't have any direct connection to DSC.
• SNW arguably acknowledges that it exists in an altered timeline with "Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow" that is NOT the Prime Timeline.
• SNW has a version of the Gorn that in no way tracks with TOS.
• The crossover between Lower Decks and SNW can be explained as the portal allowing travel between both universes and time.
• The fact that certain events are referenced in Discovery is not proof that it exists in the Prime Timeline. Arguably, it exists in a timeline that's similar but not exactly the same.
• Also, the dialogue in Lower Decks about how the fissure works in "The New Next Generation" states the Discovery Klingons that appear in the episode are from a different quantum reality.

Finally, at worst, no one is saying that Discovery or Strange New Worlds would no longer be Star Trek. All people are saying is that it would exist in its own continuity, where they can do their own thing. And if people wanted to continue Star Trek in the 25th century, they wouldn't be tied down to the "The Burn" or any of the choices made by Discovery or Starfleet Academy for the 32nd century.

Moreover, beyond all of the canon/continuity arguments, just leave those to the side for a moment. I think it says a lot that the elements of Discovery's first season are now seen as so ridiculous that they're literally jokes in other parts of the franchise. I mean what are people here so vociferously protecting? A version of the Klingons and Star Trek that were so universally hated that the people in charge went into instant backtrack mode because of the backlash? That's what you're defending to stay in the Prime Timeline?

It's really just all fan speculation.

The people who make the shows and who hold the copyright say it's all in the same universe/timeline. I'm fine with that. No reason to turn one's self into knots to come up with reason after reason after reason to say they're not.

 

[Dukhat]

Something I always thought was interesting was the SNW episode where they go back to Delta Vega to find their three missing crew members. Those missing crew wear the exact same uniforms that were made specifically for SNW, despite the fact that they should have been wearing The Cage uniforms (or at least the season 1 DSC uniforms.) Hardly conclusive evidence, I know, but it seems like sometimes I feel that stuff like this was done deliberately.

 

[Citiprime]

It's really just all fan speculation.

The people who make the shows and who hold the copyright say it's all in the same universe/timeline. I'm fine with that. No reason to turn one's self into knots to come up with reason after reason after reason to say they're not.

George Lucas recut "A New Hope" multiple times and made it the official position of LucasFilm that it was not his authorial intent that "Han Shot First."

That official position didn't mean shit.

And most fans don't accept Lucas's interpretation, no matter how much authority he has.

 

[Yistaan]

Something I always thought was interesting was the SNW episode where they go back to Delta Vega to find their three missing crew members. Those missing crew wear the exact same uniforms that were made specifically for SNW, despite the fact that they should have been wearing The Cage uniforms (or at least the season 1 DSC uniforms.) Hardly conclusive evidence, I know, but it seems like sometimes I feel that stuff like this was done deliberately.

That was already a problem with Q&A to be honest. And it was Rigel VII they went back to, not Delta Vega.

The best answer at this point may be that the Cage was shown from the perspective of the crew who were still suffering from memory issues from their time on Rigel VII, and their memory was distorted to make the ship look "TOS-style" and we as viewers also saw that distortion.

Non-canon obviously, but the IDW comics already claimed that there was a refit between Pike and Kirk and the ship got changed from its SNW look to its TOS look (Cage aside, which I just provided an explanation for above). Is that an absurd answer? Yes, but it's an answer and maybe the Fed hired the Pakleds to be in charge of refits in 2265.

 

[Firebird]

George Lucas recut "A New Hope" multiple times and made it the official position of LucasFilm that it was not his authorial intent that "Han Shot First."

That official position didn't mean shit.

And most fans don't accept Lucas's interpretation, no matter how much authority he has.

The fans don't own the franchise and don't call the shots. Spare me the "official position doesn't mean anything" fan entitlement.

 

[Citiprime]

Except that same Lower Decks episode also showed the fissures to be transforming people from different time periods (the Klingons turned into proto-Klingons, their ship turned into a sail barge used in times past, and Dr. T'Ana even outright says the Klingon ships aren't affected as much because they hardly change their ship designs, which would be meaningless if the fissure anomaly was strictly a quantum universes thing).

What we CAN conclude is that Disco's Klingons ARE biologically different from Klingons elsewhere. But that's meaningless. After all, we saw Kor, Kang and Koloth were augment virus victims once and look cured a century later. Meaning, Disco's Klingons may be how 2250s Klingons just looked. Perhaps it was another attempt at curing the augment virus that went too far off in the other direction, not everyone took it, and by the time of the TOS movies, a more stable cure was found that normalized Klingon biology.

Except...

The Cerritos turns into the Mirror Universe version of the ship. That's not the same timeline.

So the rift was altering matter to transform into versions of life and structures from various other alternate universes.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Alright, this whole discussion of whether Disco is an alternate reality has gone way past the point of having anything to do with Section 31. Let's move it someplace more appropriate.

Also, how recent was this episode of Lower Decks? If it's less than six months, that's a violation of the spoiler rules.

 

[HotRod]

DSC's version of the Klingons are not seen in any other version of Trek beyond Lower Decks,

We only saw The Motion Picture Klingons in a single film and never again. Must be a different quantum reality. Same for the Trill we saw in TNG. They were drastically different from DS9 Trill. Must be a different quantum reality.

A spore drive that hasn't been referenced in any other Trek that doesn't have any direct connection to DSC.

Star Trek is full of different forms of propulsion that were seen and then never mentioned again. Thus is nothing new.

SNW arguably acknowledges that it exists in an altered timeline with "Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow" that is NOT the Prime Timeline.

We've been down this road before. Long story short, if SNW isn't prime, neither is TNG.

SNW has a version of the Gorn that in no way tracks with TOS.

Big green lizard with sharp teeth and bad attitudes. Close enough. Could say the same about the Gorn we saw in Enterprise. But again, a species being slightly different than in previous iterations is nothing new to Star Trek.

The crossover between Lower Decks and SNW can be explained as the portal allowing travel between both universes and time.

Boimler, a fan of Starfleet history, noticed nothing out of place. He even has a poster in his bunk showing "The Discoprise."

The fact that certain events are referenced in Discovery is not proof that it exists in the Prime Timeline. Arguably, it exists in a timeline that's similar but not exactly the same.

Wishful thinking. The intent behind showing clips from TNG and The Cage is pretty clear and definitive.

Also, the dialogue in Lower Decks about how the fissure works in "The New Next Generation" states the Discovery Klingons that appear in the episode are from a different quantum reality.

By this logic, The Galaxy Class and Oberth Class starships must only exist in a different quantum reality.

I think it says a lot that the elements of Discovery's first season are now seen as so ridiculous that they're literally jokes in other parts of the franchise.

It's Lower Decks. They make fun of EVERYTHING! That's kinda the point.

I mean what are people here so vociferously protecting?

The show has fans. They're no less worthy of being part of the fandom than anyone else.

A version of the Klingons and Star Trek that were so universally hated that the people in charge went into instant backtrack mode because of the backlash?

Again, the show has fans. Clearly it wasn't universally hated. I'd love to see something that backs up the universally hated claim. It's funny, I remember when Enterprise was universally hated. At least that's what I remember the gatekeeping fans telling me back in the day. The more things change the more they stay the same.

 

[Noname Given]

As to a few of your points:

• DSC's version of the Klingons are not seen in any other version of Trek beyond Lower Decks, where they're implied to be from different quantum reality.

For 40 years TOS TV Klingons only existed in TOS and TAS and weren't canonized in Berman era Trek until ENT S4 - but in all that time np one claimed they weren’t part of the Prime Trek Timeline.

• A spore drive that hasn't been referenced in any other Trek that doesn't have any direct connection to DSC.

Considering it didn't exist as a concept or appear before ST: D; it's pretty much in the same boat as TOS TV Klingons.

• SNW arguably acknowledges that it exists in an altered timeline with "Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow" that is NOT the Prime Timeline.

Then Star Trek Voyager is in an alternate universe as well because it's depiction of 1996 Earth in VOY S3 Future's End I & II doesn't comport with Spock's description of the era in TOS S1 Space Seed.

in fact the 1996 era depicted in VOY lines up more with the SNW description of the timeline.

• SNW has a version of the Gorn that in no way tracks with TOS.

I disagree. In fact everything that's happening with the Gorn in SNW explains how the Gorn in TOS S1 Arena were able to convincingly create the fact messages from the Cestus III Outpost including the so well done communication and live conversation between Kirk and a fake AI Commodore Travers that in fact was so well executed Kirk had zero idea that the Outpost had been attacked and destroyed until he and the team the fake Travers asked for beamed down.

 

[Firebird]

For 40 years TOS TV Klingons only existed in TOS and TAS and weren't canonized in Berman era Trek until ENT S4 - but in all that time np one claimed they weren’t part of the Prime Trek Timeline.

Wouldn't be more like 30 years since they were shown and lampshaded in DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations?"

 

[Noname Given]

Wouldn't be more like 30 years since they were shown and lampshaded in DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations?"

True. I stand corrected.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Here's the issue, I don't think there's anything definitive to declare Discovery and SNW are off in their own quantum reality. But that scene from Lower Decks DOES open up the possibility, especially since Mike McMahan did NOT shut down that speculation and was quite clear in leaving it open to the interpretation of the fans.

Also:

• DSC's version of the Klingons are not seen in any other version of Trek beyond Lower Decks, where they're implied to be from different quantum reality.
• A spore drive that hasn't been referenced in any other Trek that doesn't have any direct connection to DSC.
• SNW arguably acknowledges that it exists in an altered timeline with "Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow" that is NOT the Prime Timeline.
• SNW has a version of the Gorn that in no way tracks with TOS.
• The crossover between Lower Decks and SNW can be explained as the portal allowing travel between both universes and time.
• The fact that certain events are referenced in Discovery is not proof that it exists in the Prime Timeline. Arguably, it exists in a timeline that's similar but not exactly the same.
• Also, the dialogue in Lower Decks about how the fissure works in "The New Next Generation" states the Discovery Klingons that appear in the episode are from a different quantum reality.

Finally, at worst, no one is saying that Discovery or Strange New Worlds would no longer be Star Trek. All people are saying is that it would exist in its own continuity, where they can do their own thing. And if people wanted to continue Star Trek in the 25th century, they wouldn't be tied down to the "The Burn" or any of the choices made by Discovery or Starfleet Academy for the 32nd century.

Moreover, beyond all of the canon/continuity arguments, just leave those to the side for a moment. I think it says a lot that the elements of Discovery's first season are now seen as so ridiculous that they're literally jokes in other parts of the franchise. I mean what are people here so vociferously protecting? A version of the Klingons and Star Trek that were so universally hated that the people in charge went into instant backtrack mode because of the backlash? That's what you're defending to stay in the Prime Timeline?

I think it just shows how childishly hateful, a portion of the fanbase is. They're so rabid about Discovery not being canon that they'll literally use a sight gag to support their viewpoint.

I just took the scene as being similar to Odo seeing TOS klingons and Worf's response being 'we do not discuss it'. But if the fan response is anything to go by we're going to get a 3 episode arc in some future series about how discovery klingons became TOS klingons who became TNG klingons.

It's one of those moments when people have to remember they're watching a cartoon series that features an omnipotent being in the form of a Koala and just go along for the ride.

 

[Yistaan]

Going by Kacey Rohl's age and the non-canon Starship Creator year of birth for Rachel Garrett as 2300, we could place this movie at circa 2332. I'm surprised they had the restraint not to put a young Picard in this, who would be on the verge of taking command of the Stargazer.