Spoilers Section 31 General Discussion Thread

[Ray Hardgrit]

I just took the scene as being similar to Odo seeing TOS klingons and Worf's response being 'we do not discuss it'. But if the fan response is anything to go by we're going to get a 3 episode arc in some future series about how discovery klingons became TOS klingons who became TNG klingons.


It's one of those moments when people have to remember they're watching a cartoon series that features an omnipotent being in the form of a Koala and just go along for the ride.

Worked out fine the last time they did it. Also omnipotent beings are all over Star Trek and can take any form they want!

(I really don't like the koala. Please, future showrunners, please please please take Star Trek more seriously. Even in comedies.)

 

[Noname Given]

Going by Kacey Rohl's age and the non-canon Starship Creator year of birth for Rachel Garrett as 2300, we could place this movie at circa 2332. I'm surprised they had the restraint not to put a young Picard in this, who would be on the verge of taking command of the Stargazer.

You never know - James McAvoy could indeed have a cameo...

 

[Yistaan]

Worked out fine the last time they did it. Also omnipotent beings are all over Star Trek and can take any form they want!

(I really don't like the koala. Please, future showrunners, please please please take Star Trek more seriously. Even in comedies.)

Did the koala ask for a starship though?

 

[fireproof78]

Please, future showrunners, please please please take Star Trek more seriously. Even in comedies.)

Yes.

Please schedule the jokes according to proper timelines. I've created a list of acceptable jokes, and intervals. Please note jokes per runtime limit. Please do not reference koalas.


ETA: Appropriate Captain Holt reference inserted finally:

 

[Firebird]

[PATRICK STEWART] We are NOT here to have FUN! [/PATRICK STEWART]

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Yes.

Please schedule the jokes according to proper timelines. I've created a list of acceptable jokes, and intervals. Please note jokes per runtime limit. Please do not reference koalas.

There are rules governing all aspects of storytelling. This is doubly true for comedy.

 

[Turtletrekker]

The one and only good addition they added to the lore.

Meanwhile, in the real world, the character of Michael Burnham was the best thing to happen to the character of Spock since the Genesis wave. We gained valuable insights into Spock through Michael before Spock ever even appeared on the show.

 

[fireproof78]

There are rules governing all aspects of storytelling. This is doubly true for comedy.

I'm failing to see how a koala violates these rules.


But, then, I'm a weird guy. Some of my top shows are billed as comedies yet hit the emotional dramatic moments with pitch perfect style that I personally would stack against the best of Trek.

Citing rules ignores what can inspire people in storytelling.

 

[NCC-73515]

Going by Kacey Rohl's age and the non-canon Starship Creator year of birth for Rachel Garrett as 2300, we could place this movie at circa 2332. I'm surprised they had the restraint not to put a young Picard in this, who would be on the verge of taking command of the Stargazer.

We don't know that yet, I'm kinda expecting some surprise like that

 

[The Old Mixer]

Alright, this whole discussion of whether Disco is an alternate reality has gone way past the point of having anything to do with Section 31. Let's move it someplace more appropriate.

Also, how recent was this episode of Lower Decks? If it's less than six months, that's a violation of the spoiler rules.

This means all of you guys:

We only saw The Motion Picture Klingons in a single film and never again. Must be a different quantum reality. Same for the Trill we saw in TNG. They were drastically different from DS9 Trill. Must be a different quantum reality.

Star Trek is full of different forms of propulsion that were seen and then never mentioned again. Thus is nothing new.

We've been down this road before. Long story short, if SNW isn't prime, neither is TNG.

Big green lizard with sharp teeth and bad attitudes. Close enough. Could say the same about the Gorn we saw in Enterprise. But again, a species being slightly different than in previous iterations is nothing new to Star Trek.

Boimler, a fan of Starfleet history, noticed nothing out of place. He even has a poster in his bunk showing "The Discoprise."

Wishful thinking. The intent behind showing clips from TNG and The Cage is pretty clear and definitive.

By this logic, The Galaxy Class and Oberth Class starships must only exist in a different quantum reality.

It's Lower Decks. They make fun of EVERYTHING! That's kinda the point.

The show has fans. They're no less worthy of being part of the fandom than anyone else.

Again, the show has fans. Clearly it wasn't universally hated. I'd love to see something that backs up the universally hated claim. It's funny, I remember when Enterprise was universally hated. At least that's what I remember the gatekeeping fans telling me back in the day. The more things change the more they stay the same.

As to a few of your points:

For 40 years TOS TV Klingons only existed in TOS and TAS and weren't canonized in Berman era Trek until ENT S4 - but in all that time np one claimed they weren’t part of the Prime Trek Timeline.


Considering it didn't exist as a concept or appear before ST: D; it's pretty much in the same boat as TOS TV Klingons.


Then Star Trek Voyager is in an alternate universe as well because it's depiction of 1996 Earth in VOY S3 Future's End I & II doesn't comport with Spock's description of the era in TOS S1 Space Seed.

in fact the 1996 era depicted in VOY lines up more with the SNW description of the timeline.


I disagree. In fact everything that's happening with the Gorn in SNW explains how the Gorn in TOS S1 Arena were able to convincingly create the fact messages from the Cestus III Outpost including the so well done communication and live conversation between Kirk and a fake AI Commodore Travers that in fact was so well executed Kirk had zero idea that the Outpost had been attacked and destroyed until he and the team the fake Travers asked for beamed down.

Wouldn't be more like 30 years since they were shown and lampshaded in DS9: "Trials and Tribble-ations?"

True. I stand corrected.

I think it just shows how childishly hateful, a portion of the fanbase is. They're so rabid about Discovery not being canon that they'll literally use a sight gag to support their viewpoint.

I just took the scene as being similar to Odo seeing TOS klingons and Worf's response being 'we do not discuss it'. But if the fan response is anything to go by we're going to get a 3 episode arc in some future series about how discovery klingons became TOS klingons who became TNG klingons.

It's one of those moments when people have to remember they're watching a cartoon series that features an omnipotent being in the form of a Koala and just go along for the ride.

Worked out fine the last time they did it. Also omnipotent beings are all over Star Trek and can take any form they want!

(I really don't like the koala. Please, future showrunners, please please please take Star Trek more seriously. Even in comedies.)

Meanwhile, in the real world, the character of Michael Burnham was the best thing to happen to the character of Spock since the Genesis wave. We gained valuable insights into Spock through Michael before Spock ever even appeared on the show.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Sorry about that, Chief.

 

[Jayson1]

So I'm sitting here at work, looking for a podcast to listen to while I toil away. Unfortunately, most things I listen to still haven't come back from the holidays. One thing that I do see is the Inglorious Treksperts have a podcast about the best "war episodes of Star Trek." OK, what the hell, I'll give it a listen, nothing else to really listen to.

Right off the hop I find out that pompous asshole Robert Meyer Burnett is on. Ok, there's a notch against it. What proceeded was a solid 20 minutes of them gleefully declaring Discovery and SNW to be removed from the canon thanks to Lower Decks. It may have went on, I switched it off. The sound of machines blaring in my ears is a better alternative.

I mean, these assholes call themselves experts? Yet they willfully ignore things from the very fucking episode they're going nuts over? Nevermind the mountain of evidence from other sources?

Jesus H. Christ...... this fandom needs an enema.

Burnett at least has some claim to be called a expert. He has worked in the past making the Trek Blu Rays and I guess probably knows lots of people who have made the various Trek shows over the years. I know lots of people don't like him but I will always have a soft spot for him because I love 'Free Enterprise" though ironically he is at his most unreasonable IMO these days when it comes to Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

Burnett at least has some claim to be called a expert. He has worked in the past making the Trek Blu Rays and I guess probably knows lots of people who have made the various Trek shows over the years. I know lots of people don't like him but I will always have a soft spot for him because I love 'Free Enterprise" though ironically he is at his most unreasonable IMO these days when it comes to Trek.

Being an expert doesn't make one any less insufferable. Burnett might know a lot, but sadly, an ounce of compassion is not really present. It's frustrating, incredibly so, that a franchise that prides itself on diversity and breaking barriers at times, regardless of how minor, can become restricted on people allowed in.

 

[Turtletrekker]

A self-proclaimed "expert". How does one define an expert? I've seen every piece of Star Trek ever made, does that make me an expert?

At any rate, Burnett is an ass who went out of his way to spoil the Guardian of Forever reveal on Discovery simply out of pettiness. Nothing he says is relevant to me.

 

[Dukhat]

Meanwhile, in the real world, the character of Michael Burnham was the best thing to happen to the character of Spock since the Genesis wave. We gained valuable insights into Spock through Michael before Spock ever even appeared on the show.

No offense, but Spock was just fine long before the character of Michael Burnham came along.

 

[Jayson1]

I think expert would I guess be someone with experience working in or around a specific subject matter. Someone with reliable inside knowledge. I think he would count. Granted I think he is often very wrong about most modern Trek. SNW,Lower Decks,Prodigy(the one he kind of is okay with) and season 1 and especially 3 of Picard were all pretty good. I also like the Kelvinverse movies. "Discovery" though just isn't that good. It is why it carries the brunt of criticism. Lots of dislike for the show even from those not embracing they constant drama of the culture war. They are though grasping at straws to say the Lower Decks somehow makes it not canon.

The funny thing though is I wouldn't be surprised if someday it is removed from canon and bumped into a alternate universe. We have seen plenty of movies like say Terminator do the same. I believe we now have like 5 different Terminator 3's. Probably be from whoever replaces Kurtzman someday or the person that replaces that person. I am actually more concerned right now of them doing that to "Enterprise" when you hear talk about that Trek movie they are working on that would explore the creation of the Federation. I see lots of things conflicting with the show in that setting.

 

[fireproof78]

The funny thing though is I wouldn't be surprised if someday it is removed from canon and bumped into a alternate universe.

The word is "continuity."

Which stories have been removed from canon, i.e. no longer a part of the official body of work.

. Lots of dislike for the show even from those not embracing they constant drama of the culture war. They are grasping at straws to say the Lower Decks somehow makes it not canon.

Often the drama is completely unnecessary.

 

[Citiprime]

Meanwhile, in the real world, the character of Michael Burnham was the best thing to happen to the character of Spock since the Genesis wave. We gained valuable insights into Spock through Michael before Spock ever even appeared on the show.

I really disagree.

They inserted Michael Burnham into Spock’s backstory in the most clumsy way, similar to how Cousin Oliver showed up on “The Brady Bunch” or Scrappy Doo shows up in “Scooby Doo.”

A previously unheard of relative that they try to shoehorn into making a significant aspect of the established characters’ history, that both complicates the previous narrative dynamics between Sarek, Spock, and Amanda, while also not allowing Michael’s story to live or die on its own.

I don’t believe Michael Burnham’s story needed that much connective tissue to Spock, and everything about her tragic background could have been achieved by letting it be her story alone.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I really disagree.

They inserted Michael Burnham into Spock’s backstory in the most clumsy way, similar to how Cousin Oliver showed up on “The Brady Bunch” or Scrappy Doo shows up in “Scooby Doo.”

A previously unheard of relative that they try to shoehorn into making a significant aspect of the established characters’ history, that both complicates the previous narrative dynamics between Sarek, Spock, and Amanda, while also not allowing Michael’s story to live or die on its own.

I don’t believe Michael Burnham’s story needed that much connective tissue to Spock, and everything about her tragic background could have been achieved by letting it be her story alone.

And I disagree with every word you just said. The insights we get about Spock and his relationship with Sarek in the episode Lethe alone are worth playing the Spock card, and that was before he even appeared on the show.

 

[fireproof78]

I really disagree.

They inserted Michael Burnham into Spock’s backstory in the most clumsy way, similar to how Cousin Oliver showed up on “The Brady Bunch” or Scrappy Doo shows up in “Scooby Doo.”

A previously unheard of relative that they try to shoehorn into making a significant aspect of the established characters’ history, that both complicates the previous narrative dynamics between Sarek, Spock, and Amanda, while also not allowing Michael’s story to live or die on its own.

I don’t believe Michael Burnham’s story needed that much connective tissue to Spock, and everything about her tragic background could have been achieved by letting it be her story alone.

How did the dynamic change?