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Spoilers Section 31 General Discussion Thread

A Section 31 series. Yay or nay?

  • Yay, a Section 31 series!

    Votes: 80 40.0%
  • Nay, give us anything else instead!

    Votes: 120 60.0%

  • Total voters
    200
She murdered millions -- potentially billions -- of people. What the fuck difference does it make what world she's from?

All of it. In this make believe world she's from, the moral laws of that world are to do unto others before it's done to you. There were no 10 Commandments like ours (whether you believe in them or not). There was no Sesame Street teaching about sharing. Or annoying purple dinosaurs to say to love one another. The opposite occurred. In this world, everyone born is taught to fight. Everyone. That's all they know and it's accepted by everyone that this is how it is. If you, personally, were born there, you would grow to be the same way. I would. We all would. The evolution of that planet is one where there is no moral compass like ours. And it's not the fault of the person born on that world that their upbringing and culture distorted it so. How do they know any better when there's nothing else to compare to?

The fun part about science fiction is you get to take that idea and then say, well, what if someone that was literally programmed on that world to not know any better was suddenly thrust into a scenario where they were shown that their whole upbringing and beliefs that were instilled upon them since birth were completely wrong? Watching the choices they then make is the interesting part.

But trying to compare that person to someone who is evil in our real history despite being brought up in a culture that overall believes in the value in life and others, that's a different beast. You can't compare the two. The societies that constructed morality and laws in which they were raised are opposite from each other.

On top of that. The people that she killed, as far as the main timeline/universe are concerned, don't even exist. There are zero bodies. Zero graves. The people she murdered are happily living their lives and doing their thing in this universe. Can a judge or jury condemn someone if there isn't proof or evidence of a crime? And all evidence actually points to the opposite?
 
Exactly. I'm just not sure why the constant draw on real world parallels because she isn't from our real world. What laws apply to the Mirror Universe from our universe?

I just can't wait for the Mirror Universe Rat Line. Why ever face any ramifications for one's actions when you can just jump to the next universe where they don't have jurisdiction. :shrug:
 
The fun part about science fiction is you get to take that idea and then say, well, what if someone that was literally programmed on that world to not know any better was suddenly thrust into a scenario where they were shown that their whole upbringing and beliefs that were instilled upon them since birth were completely wrong? Watching the choices they then make is the interesting part.

Doesn't that apply to Hitler, then? He grew up during the height of anti-semitism in Europe and was raised in an anti-semetic home.

He didn't know any better based on the world he was raised in. He didn't have Sesame Street.
 
Doesn't that apply to Hitler, then? He grew up during the height of anti-semitism in Europe and was raised in an anti-semetic home.

He didn't know any better based on the world he was raised in. He didn't have Sesame Street.

He was literally thinking of becoming a priest! He sang in the church choir! Whether you believe in Jesus or not, what was written of him in the Bible that Hitler studied automatically makes your argument not applicable. He knew better. He was a monster.
 
He was literally thinking of becoming a priest! Whether you believe in Jesus or not, what was written of him in the Bible that Hitler studied automatically makes your argument not applicable. He knew better. He was a monster.

So is Georgiou, as eating a sapient being for pleasure would attest to. And, in case you haven't noticed, people have warped the meanings in the Bible to suit their causes over the last 2,000 years. Studying to be a priest doesn't mean he ever had good intentions.

We used to be told slavery was endorsed by the Bible.
 
So is Georgiou, as eating a sapient being for pleasure would attest to. And, in case you haven't noticed, people have warped the meanings in the Bible to suit their causes over the last 2,000 years. Studying to be a priest doesn't mean he ever had good intentions.

We used to be told slavery was endorsed by the Bible.

The guide posts exist in our real world, and have for literally thousands of years. Yes, they get distorted. Yes they get ignored. But they're here.

Those guide posts don't exist in the mirror universe. Which created a unified and different culture.


I just can't wait for the Mirror Universe Rat Line. Why ever face any ramifications for one's actions when you can just jump to the next universe where they don't have jurisdiction. :shrug:

This is a sci-fi staple.

If you travel 1000 years into the future, kill a person, then travel back to your own time, can you be convicted of that crime?
 
The guide posts exist in our real world, and have for literally thousands of years. Yes, they get distorted. Yes they get ignored. But they're here.

Those guide posts don't exist in the mirror universe. Which created a unified and different culture.
Exactly, with potentially different morality.

Right now, there appears to be an appeal to a universal moral code, which makes me wonder who arbitrates this code across universes?
 
The Halkans clearly showed that people in the Mirror Universe do have morals. That they aren't this weird exotic fruit, like is being presented here. The Vulcans seemed to have morals as well, or else Spock would've never warned Sulu about coming after him.

So, while morals were not "front and center", it is clear that they exist and are known in the Terran Empire.
 
And it's applied universally?

So you have a problem with genocide being applied universally? You think it is a good idea to just welcome whatever monsters show up at your door step, as long as they weren't in your jurisdiction when they committed their crimes?
 
I don't even know who the fuck Carl is? :lol:
Carl is a physical representation of the Guardian of Forever.

My problem with the Emperor is how she was written and (sorry Michelle) she was performed. Both left little room for redemption. Far too arch and camp on the one hand and saddled with despicable acts on the other. The pivot to "mother figure/advisor/mentor" to Michael just didn't work. She knows this person and has witnessed her cruelty. I don't see her love for Prime Georgiou blinding her to that.
 
So you have a problem with genocide being applied universally? You think it is a good idea to just welcome whatever monsters show up at your door step, as long as they weren't in your jurisdiction when they committed their crimes?
That's not the question.

What's the standard and who arbitrates it?

Because under my standard many hundreds of Trek characters are dead for their crimes.
 
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