Season 4 "The Visitor"

[All Seeing Eye]

"The Visitor" is the episode where Ben Sisko aparently dies and we hear Jake Sisko as an old man in the future telling the story of what happened.
My question is this..... in this future obviously Ben Sisko died and therefore was never around when the Dominion invaded the Alpha Quadrant, now we all know that Sisko plays a huge role in ending the war and stopping Dominion re-inforcements from entering the Alpha Quadrant, he also stops Dukat and the pahwraiths so how on Earth did this alternate future exist like it did? shouldnt the Dominion have completely conquered the Alpha Quadrant? and wiped out the Federation? and more than likely killed the crew of DS9 and destroyed the Defiant?

 

[misskim86]

Apparently they stopped the Dominion in some other way. Most likely Kirk came back with Spock and nuked the worm hole, beat up Dukat like a b*tch and the changeling woman gave up just before Kirk blew up her ship

 

[Ezri]

They could have an episode to tell us these answers. RESET BUTTON ... title of the episode.

It was a reset episode and you want a episode that used a reset?

 

[Thrall]

misskim86 said:
Apparently they stopped the Dominion in some other way. Most likely Kirk came back with Spock and nuked the worm hole, beat up Dukat like a b*tch and the changeling woman gave up just before Kirk blew up her ship

Hence why I hate Kirk and TOS. It's fantasy fulfillment at it's worst.

 

[Ezri]

Good god this thead is going to be just as lame as John Edwards for president

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Ezri said:
Good god this thead is going to be just as lame as John Edwards for president

^ This thread is an opportunity to try and figure out how the Dominion war could possibly have been won without Sisko.

 

[Ezri]

Did not Sisko start the Dominion War in the first place?

 

[Navaros]

I chalk this up to another major plothole fubar, certainly DS9 has many others too.

I also agree with Ezri. Visitor uses the lame reset button so it's hard to take the episode seriously for that reason. Clearly they weren't thinking ahead as their vision was clouded by knowing they'd be mashing the reset button by the end of the episode.

Good thinking to point out this major plothole though, Fire. Kudos for that.

Ezri said:
Did not Sisko start the Dominion War in the first place?

Yeah he did. But if the Sisko wasn't there to do that and no one else did in his place, then the Dominion would have conquered the AQ via Weyoun's diplomatic skills just like they did to the Cardies. Either way, the AQ would still be under Dominion control without the Sisko. Which it clearly wasn't in The Visitor.

 

[misskim86]

Thrall said:

misskim86 said:
Apparently they stopped the Dominion in some other way. Most likely Kirk came back with Spock and nuked the worm hole, beat up Dukat like a b*tch and the changeling woman gave up just before Kirk blew up her ship

Hence why I hate Kirk and TOS. It's fantasy fulfillment at it's worst.

Fantasy fullfillment is great

And Kirk would have owned Dukat

 

[Ezri]

Navaros said:
I chalk this up to another major plothole fubar, certainly DS9 has many others too.

I also agree with Ezri. Visitor uses the lame reset button so it's hard to take the episode seriously for that reason. Clearly they weren't thinking ahead as their vision was clouded by knowing they'd be mashing the reset button by the end of the episode.

Good thinking to point out this major plothole though, Fire. Kudos for that.

Ezri said:
Did not Sisko start the Dominion War in the first place?

Yeah he did. But if the Sisko wasn't there to do that and no one else did in his place, then the Dominion would have conquered the AQ via Weyoun's diplomatic skills just like they did to the Cardies. Either way, the AQ would still be under Dominion control without the Sisko. Which it clearly wasn't in The Visitor.

You place way too much faith in the skills of Sisko.

In that episode, the Klingon Empire controls DS9 and controls the space around DS9. The Visitor came out right after the two part episodes of The Way of the Warrior. If Sisko was gone right after the battle with the Klingons to take over DS9, the Klingon Empire would have an advantage to take over the station.

During that time the Cardassian Union was just conquered by the Klingon Empire and did not hold their advantage as they would because of the failed takeover of DS9 and knowing that Sisko was helping the Cardassians. Second, it was with the worm whole being allowed to stay open because of Sisko that the Dominion was able to rearm the Cardassian Union.

Without Sisko this could have happened. The Klingon Empire takes over DS9. The Klingon Empire takes total control of the Cardassian Union. The Klingon Empire destroys the worm whole and keeps all the Dominion ships out of the picture.

 

[Kegek]

Actually, the Klingons do not destroy the wormhole in the episode - it remains in rather conspicuous existence. The Dominion go quiet and nothing is heard from them in this future timeline; no explanation is ever given as to why.

 

[mrs260]

The episode clearly states and shows that the wormhole wasn't closed, but it also states that everyone from the Alpha Quad stayed out of the wormhole. There was a long period of no incursions into what the Dominion saw as its territory.

IMO, the Dominion went back to what the writers saw as its original plan: confront the Federation, Klingons, etc. in 75 years when they naturally would have met each other without the wormhole.

I do think the Dominion kept a close eye on the wormhole, certainly, but they obviously didn't feel a need to prematurely force a confrontation.

 

[AdmiralGarak]

So basically, the Dominion War was entirely Sisko's fault?

 

[mrs260]

I wouldn't say that. I think some form of conflict would still happen, just later, that's all.

Later, actually, would probably be worse. Without the bottleneck of the wormhole, without being cut off from even that through Sisko's intervention, and with decades to prepare with their vastly superior intelligence network, the Dominion would probably have won a delayed confrontation.

 

[Ezri]

Kegek said:
Actually, the Klingons do not destroy the wormhole in the episode - it remains in rather conspicuous existence. The Dominion go quiet and nothing is heard from them in this future timeline; no explanation is ever given as to why.

Do not recall the wormhole opened during the could have happened without Sisko.

 

[Hofner]

If the Klingons had control of the wormhole and the Dominion tried to send ships through, I cannot imagine the Klingons allowing that to go on for long. The Klingons would've blockaded the wormhole much sooner than the Feds so the Dominion wouldn't have been able to get much of their forces into the AQ.

Robert

 

[Ezri]

hofner said:
If the Klingons had control of the wormhole and the Dominion tried to send ships through, I cannot imagine the Klingons allowing that to go on for long. The Klingons would've blockaded the wormhole much sooner than the Feds so the Dominion wouldn't have been able to get much of their forces into the AQ.

Robert

INDEED

 

[Thrall]

misskim86 said:

Thrall said:

misskim86 said:
Apparently they stopped the Dominion in some other way. Most likely Kirk came back with Spock and nuked the worm hole, beat up Dukat like a b*tch and the changeling woman gave up just before Kirk blew up her ship

Hence why I hate Kirk and TOS. It's fantasy fulfillment at it's worst.

Fantasy fullfillment is great

And Kirk would have owned Dukat

Of course he would have. Because he's not a real character. Because a real character has flaws and makes mistakes. Kirk is a super-human. He's perfect in every way. No one is smarter then him. No one is better then him. Every man wants to be him. Every woman wants him. He's an Ideal character. Much like Superman or John Wayne. Kirk represents an ideal. There is no real human like that. And even by fantasy standards it's pretty ridiculous.

 

[Ezri]

Thrall said:
Every woman wants him. Kirk represents an ideal.

As a woman I do not want him. Kirk is to be born in 2233 and I would be a very old woman in 2233. Think there is way to much of an age issue with us.

 

[Thrall]

Ezri said:

Thrall said:
Every woman wants him. Kirk represents an ideal.

As a woman I do not want him. Kirk is to be born in 2233 and I would be a very old woman in 2233. Think there is way to much of an age issue with us.

Like he would let that stop him.