Again, my point was he sees that as rape despite what the law says while arguing this isn't because of what the law says without seeing the disconnect there.
Scifi with aggressive sexuality
- Thread starter JirinPanthosa
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You choose the worst of the worst, from a story that literally (literally as literally, not figuratively as you U.S. people mean) sickened me and I have to believe that it was merely a simple example?
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Amaris
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I don't pull punches. If I mean to show you something, I'm going to show you the genuine ugliness of it. Rape is ugly. The sentiments made by these people are ugly, and they perpetuate rape culture. The women who live in this culture every day aren't going to care about the razor thin legalism being bandied about, they're going to be concerned that a man may rape them and walk away because it "wasn't quite rape," in the eyes of the law. Hence, why I said rape is rape, it's all horrendous, and all of it a violation of a human being's rights. Everything else you've concluded from that has been on you.
No they didn't. They said that argument was part of rape culture. That sort of mentality that's the product of it, basically.
Let's put it this way - jokes about 'dropping the soap' whilst in prison. aren't (usually) intended to actively support rape culture. But their use (and the fact that people still mostly find the mere idea funny) is the product of it, and only serves to unintentionally continue it.
Jesus. I walk away to make one stroganoff, and WWIII breaks out.
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The argument aren't separated and independent objects from to those who expressed them. If you believe that I am making racist remarks, I am considered a racist.
The idea of 'rape culture' is that it's ingrained. It doesn't have 'supporters', it something that under-rides the entirety of society: It's...'normal' behavior.
Of course, when criticised it does have defenders. Thats just another part of the culture, but I suppose 'supporter' does fit that context.
But whatever. Whether you intend to or not, you have trivialised rape in your posts. You have refused to recognize the depth of harm that different forms of sexual assault can have upon the victim. That's all part of rape culture. If you think 'supporter' fits that sort of behavior, then have at it and use that term
But don't try to claim anyone else called you that.
Of course, when criticised it does have defenders. Thats just another part of the culture, but I suppose 'supporter' does fit that context.
But whatever. Whether you intend to or not, you have trivialised rape in your posts. You have refused to recognize the depth of harm that different forms of sexual assault can have upon the victim. That's all part of rape culture. If you think 'supporter' fits that sort of behavior, then have at it and use that term
But don't try to claim anyone else called you that.
Just browsed through the last three pages of this thread. What an odd discussion. And all that anger towards that one poster. Don't see what he/she did that would justify beating him/her so. How does the concept of a 'rape culture' fit into a discussion about depicting that kind of violence in fiction?
Is this in reference to a specific fictional scifi setting?
Oh well. So I'm not an active supporter but I'm so ingrained in the rape culture that I'm totally blind at it. So you have designed me as the potential trekks rapist because obviously some day I'll rape someone and I will try to trivialize it.
I. Never. Trivialised. Rape.
But you are some happy to find a target for your fury that you put me in the same basket with that scumbag of Brock Turner and his dad. Yeah! Congratulations.
You must so proud of yourself.
'Rape culture' does not mean 'Culture full of wannabe rapists.'
And I certainly never brought up Brock Turner.
I didn't bring it up, but it's because a cultures values tends to be expressed in that culture's media. Because 'Rape culture' (and all the contributors to it like plain old sexism) is part of our culture, it tends to be responsible for a fair amount of said 'iffy' things in media.
Like issues in how our media depicts sex and sexuality.
Hence its presence in the discussion.
And I certainly never brought up Brock Turner.
I didn't bring it up, but it's because a cultures values tends to be expressed in that culture's media. Because 'Rape culture' (and all the contributors to it like plain old sexism) is part of our culture, it tends to be responsible for a fair amount of said 'iffy' things in media.
Like issues in how our media depicts sex and sexuality.
Hence its presence in the discussion.
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Other people did. And you supported them.
^Thread Abandonment Fail.
To be fair, you failed in page 33, and everything since then has just been compound interest.
1. Realize how big the hole you've dug yourself into actually is.
2. Stop digging.
3. Put your big boy pants on and take your whipping.
1. Realize how big the hole you've dug yourself into actually is.
2. Stop digging.
3. Put your big boy pants on and take your whipping.
@Zaku says it's not rape but sextortion. I see that he claims both are equally bad so I'm not going to call him a rape apologist here. But let me explain why his posts are deeply troubling to me. He sets a very high bar for the term rape and here is why:
His point here is clearly that "she simply could have refused" and that it wasn't a "life or death" situation.
Abusing a position of power to coerce a woman into having sex... is called rape. He threatens her with consequences she cannot bear.
When @Zaku refuses to call what the sailor did "rape", he is implying that an abuse of power is only rape when the woman is faced with a "life or death" choice. I find that deeply troubling because it trivializes the very real absence of choice and the emotional violence that is associated with making an "impossible choice".
Abuse of power is not just rape if the deal is "Fuck me or you die."
It is also rape when the deals are: "Fuck me or you will never see your loved ones again." or "Fuck me or you'll never have financial security." or "Fuck me or you'll fail this exam and be kicked out of uni."
All of these are rape because the woman is faced with an impossible decision and it's a serious threat. Claiming "the woman can simply refuse" is naive and trivializes that horrible non-choice the woman is faced with.
By claiming there is a choice, when there really is none, you are implying that there is some kind of consent if she doesn't refuse the deal. There is none. She is faced with an impossible decision, even if it's not strictly "life or death".
There is no real "free choice" here, so there can be no consent. And when there's no consent... it's rape.
@Zaku, I hope you take a moment to reconsider the troubling implications of what you wrote. I also hope you won't go "But I didn't mean that!!!" The implications of what you wrote were clear, no matter your real intentions. You probably did not anticipate this because you haven't spent much time dealing with this type of questions. It seemed like you jumped into this without much preperation and posted in a hasty manner without thinking things through properly. I don't think you want this.
His point here is clearly that "she simply could have refused" and that it wasn't a "life or death" situation.
Abusing a position of power to coerce a woman into having sex... is called rape. He threatens her with consequences she cannot bear.
When @Zaku refuses to call what the sailor did "rape", he is implying that an abuse of power is only rape when the woman is faced with a "life or death" choice. I find that deeply troubling because it trivializes the very real absence of choice and the emotional violence that is associated with making an "impossible choice".
Abuse of power is not just rape if the deal is "Fuck me or you die."
It is also rape when the deals are: "Fuck me or you will never see your loved ones again." or "Fuck me or you'll never have financial security." or "Fuck me or you'll fail this exam and be kicked out of uni."
All of these are rape because the woman is faced with an impossible decision and it's a serious threat. Claiming "the woman can simply refuse" is naive and trivializes that horrible non-choice the woman is faced with.
By claiming there is a choice, when there really is none, you are implying that there is some kind of consent if she doesn't refuse the deal. There is none. She is faced with an impossible decision, even if it's not strictly "life or death".
There is no real "free choice" here, so there can be no consent. And when there's no consent... it's rape.
@Zaku, I hope you take a moment to reconsider the troubling implications of what you wrote. I also hope you won't go "But I didn't mean that!!!" The implications of what you wrote were clear, no matter your real intentions. You probably did not anticipate this because you haven't spent much time dealing with this type of questions. It seemed like you jumped into this without much preperation and posted in a hasty manner without thinking things through properly. I don't think you want this.
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There seems to be missing a link between depiction of a crime in fictional media and the view of said crime as, in your words, normal behaviour. Media always shows rape as the terrible crime that it is, it reflects how society really views this crime and the perpetrators. If indeed there is a 'rape culture' in reality and reflected in media, it exists in the form of deep seated aversion to the crime and as an almost dehumanizing view on the perpetrators.
I don't think anybody should be dehumanized but worrying the most about the 'poor perpetrators' is a rather bizarre stance to take.
We are talking about a society where there's a systemical problem with sexual objectification of women (dehumanization, you know) and in which women are often stripped of their agency and then used (dehumanization... again).
A society in which rapists actually get away with rape completely most of the time or only get very minor sentences.
A society in which people find excuses for rape and in which the victim is routinely blamed or partly blamed.
That is rape culture.
That's not what rape culture is.
Here's the thing: in the abstract, you will scarcely find anyone who defends rape. If you ask a man, "Is it OK to rape someone?" almost all of the time he'll say "hell no," because duh. Very, very few people would consciously endorse rape.
But then you start changing words around, don't use the r-word, and all of a sudden men will admit to be willing to do all kinds of things that actually are rape. Because it seems a lot of men don't know what rape is. Why don't a lot of guys know this? Because society sends all kinds of mixed messages about rape. The stereotypical view of rape is a stranger in a dark alley snatching a woman off the street, tearing her clothes off, and forcing himself on her.
That is not what most rapes actually are.
It is more often like Brock Turner: a woman in a vulnerable state, unable to consent, maybe not even aware of what is happening, and man who takes advantage of that situation. She can't say "no," so it can't be rape, right?
And maybe she was drunk.
And maybe she was wearing revealing clothes.
And maybe she was by herself at night.
We use all of these reasons (and more) to say it's OK. "She deserved it. It's not rape. She should have known better."
These beliefs are what keep women from going to police. Police mock victims and attack their behavior. So do lawyers. Very few rapists ever face charges, much less see the inside of a prison, because we'd rather give a nice-looking young man the benefit of the doubt, especially if he's being accused by some "drunk slut." And so these guys get away with it, and women don't report. And at the same time, women are bombarded with messages about how they have to protect themselves. Don't go out alone. Don't drink. Don't trust anyone. Basically, don't live your life. Become a complete shut-in, turn your house into a fortress, because the world is full of men out there who will rape you and probably get away with it. And this is somehow women's problem to solve, and somehow not a sign of a fucked up society that normalizes sexual assault.
That's what "rape culture" is.
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