They weren't 'sent to oblivion', though; they just weren't followed up on.
As has been said several times, everything that has ever been introduced into Doctor Who lore is simultaneously true and untrue at all times.
Russell T. Davies Returns to Doctor Who as New Showrunner
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They weren't 'sent to oblivion', though; they just weren't followed up on.
As has been said several times, everything that has ever been introduced into Doctor Who lore is simultaneously true and untrue at all times.
LOL. It's done none of that. The Doctor we met in Totter's Lane is a mysterious old man from another world on the run from his own people and who becomes a better person through interacting with humans.
That there were previous selves doesn't negate that.
And even if there wasn't the amnesia angle, I'd say a Doctor whose first instinct in fob-watched state when in danger is to brutally kill a squad of Judoon needs some Barbara in their life.
Everything after that really built the character, and frankly that matters, if they want to sell anniversary tat to long term fans. Or books. Or even keep us bumping this iPlayer figures up.
Pretending TC didn’t change the underlying character and history of the series is basically nonsense, as even on screen it’s trying to process that very thing happening.
It was poor writing, poorly done, and an idea that brought nothing good to the table.
Even if it had been done well, or at least competently, it still really wouldn’t have brought anything good to the table going forwards.
It was writerly dick waving from a person feeling aggrieved people had complained his first season didn’t do anything cool, or feature any nods to the past, and I would almost be willing to bet he hadn’t even *thought* about The Brain of Morbius until after some other fans brought it up in defence of him. Because if he had, he would have put his justification on screen.
He literally wrote UNIT out of the show for a Brexit joke. Just think about that for a moment. This writer literally did that.
I was, and am, pro remain, and if I was in his shoes I wouldn’t have done that.
Because I am not a plum.
OK, walk me through how ANY of what Chibnall's TC storyline has done to undo the "Everything after that really built the character" stuff.
"Person has hidden past, becomes hero without knowing any of that, finds out about hidden past" != "person didn't become a hero".
"Person has hidden past, becomes hero without knowing any of that, finds out about hidden past" != "person didn't become a hero".
Spent ages doing it already, sometimes even with humour, so have others. It boils down to ‘person who does what is right because it is right’ is aspirational in a way that ‘chosen one with atonement and revenge plot’ isn’t, or shouldn’t be.
Except the Doctor had no idea of their past, so it's STILL "person who does what's right because it is right".
What part of "memory wipe" is escaping you?
The part where it is completely unimportant, because we are shown that part of the situation is that *everything* is owed to this unseen Doctors. Even the shape of the Tardis. That whole thing about The Doctor choosing their name, because it represented their identity, because when they don’t live up to those ideals, then they are not The Doctor?
Doesn’t matter. Used to be The Doctor when they were in the Suicide Squad with Rover.
Dressed the same, did the same, so everything from Hartnell on?
Just a copy of this poor victim/agent of the evil… erm.. Division. That’s almost an ironic name.
This Doctor can’t workout if they are an ACAB protester or an actual Policeman in disguise.
Unless we get very lucky, and it’s been the wrong bloody universe since 13 fell out of the Tardis.
Lets say this differently: If RTD had introduced a scenario akin to The Timeless Children, it would a)undoubtably be much more intricate and actually more respectful of the show's history overall, and b)the episode(s) themselves would've been a lot better. See, its not just that the concept sucked, although it - the plotting and character in it were abysmal also, making the entire thing a half-hour fan-fic infodump via the Master. Just terrible.
But what I meant to say is, if RTD had actually done something like this, it would've been much more appealing and fitting (thus actually interesting), and the story in which this reveal would occur would be immeasurably better. For one, it'd actually have the companions doing anything.
But what I meant to say is, if RTD had actually done something like this, it would've been much more appealing and fitting (thus actually interesting), and the story in which this reveal would occur would be immeasurably better. For one, it'd actually have the companions doing anything.
The closest thing to interesting in it as is, is the idea that the Master would want to avenge events by wiping out the time lords. But, since that’s also a load of toot, as shown, it’s hardly worth caring about. The doctor certainly doesn’t seem to.
So if you forgot tomorrow your entire persona, then independently developed a persona (that WE never knew about either) similar but not quite the same, we'd be expected to write off all your new posts as being a cheap knock-off?
I mean, there are reasons it's tempting, but we wouldn't.
I mean, there are reasons it's tempting, but we wouldn't.
You're missing the point there. It's completely changing the origin and nature of the Doctor. Now s/he's some amazing, immortal entity from another universe who, via help from Division, spawned the Time Lord race!
When I first saw Day of the Doctor and we saw the kids early on, I knew instantly that Gallifrey was going to be saved. The Doctor wasn't going to be a child killer, particularly not during the anniversary special! I think it was a good change. Of course, there were always presumably kids on Gallifrey, but that scene made them and implications real.
I enjoyed parts of Love and Monsters. I found Fear Her to be far worse and that's the one I won't rewatch!
Yes, that's what I meant when I wrote it! Glad you figured out my meaning!
And, you keep saying that about true/untrue and no canon, but then get bent out of shape over those who want the Timeless Child to go away!
People seem to have this weird thing where they confuse how stories work with how real life works.
To the best of my knowledge I am not supposed to be, nor am I, an aspirational character. Even then, if I were, and then it was suddenly revealed I used to be… I dunno, a Hitler Youth, without any choice, I expect it might have repercussions on how I was perceived going forwards, y’know?
And, you keep saying that about true/untrue and no canon, but then get bent out of shape over those who want the Timeless Child to go away!
Nothing in Doctor Who lore "goes away", though, which is the point I keep trying to stress and that you, for whatever reason, are either ignoring or misunderstanding.
The Hartnell Doctor has not been the 'First Doctor' since the airing of The Brain of Morbius, and the Doctor themself is simultaneously both half-human and a non-Gallifreyan known as the Timeless Child.
It doesn't matter that the half-human Doctor thing has quite possibly only appeared in the Doctor Who television movie and that no Doctor Who Showrunne/Script Editor between Hinchcliffe and Chibnall chose to make anything out of the existence of the Morbius Doctors.
You're going around in circles here! You're saying there is no canon. But then you say once it's onscreen, it's official and never going away. I hope you can see the inconsistency there. I've pointed this out to you multiple times and yet you don't see it. Until you can comprehend your own logical inconsistency, there's no point for further discussions.
I would say the episode starts falling apart when the Ian Levine stand-in character appears, but disintegrates entirely when Absobalof appears. The stone save was the icing of the shitcake... BUT, the stuff before with LYNDA bonding on their own through their common experience with the Doctor is a lovely subplot and I've fond of it. I really wish RTD had stayed with that instead of the rest of what he did there.
Yeah, Fear Her is way worse. One of the worst ever.
They did make something out of ‘The Morbius Doctors’. They made them ‘Not The Doctor’ in Mawdryn Undead, The Five Doctors, Human Nature/Family of Blood, The Next Doctor, The Eleventh Hour, Name of The Doctor, Day of the Doctor…. And on and one and probably missing a few, not to mention the various wilderness years things, which also sort of kinda dealt with the half human thing.
Like many, I found Chef!Doctor interesting (if, bloody hell Chris, if you’re gonna reuse someone else’s ideas, pick something from a bit further back than that, and at least try to do a good job with it. This is the remix showrunner… the Ali express of producers… every last thing a badly made knock off of something else people liked, delivered at an excruciatingly slow wait) and the prospect of folding it into ‘series 6B’ felt kinda cool, and could have made a lot of sense. (The doctor counting the hand in a jar regen could be literally hand waved basically… he just didn’t know what happened between his trial and exile, we already know the 6B Troughton could ‘bend the laws of time’ from the five doctors.) It could have been interesting (and from a certain perspective, functionally identical to some of the stuff we did get. CIA instead of Division.) but then… then we get the PowerPoint Presentation of Doom.
It's funny...I used that exact argument many times over the years (often when arguing with Allyn) because I was vehemently opposed to the idea of previous Doctors before The First Doctor...and because there was no direct follow up on that idea.
Until now.
Now there's a stronger sense that maybe there were Doctors before The First Doctor and an explanation why that does not effect The First Doctor's journey and all of the subsequent incarnations thereafter.
Yes, maybe it was poorly executed. But for the most part, I don't mind how it was revealed (aside from the weird parallel story about the copper but that can easily be ignored). Now the show has directly addressed the faces seen in The Brain of Morbius (if not directly referenced) and I've accept that it. Because it's more concrete and established, instead of almost entirely a fan theory.
And, again, as stated many times in this thread and other threads but seems to be ignored again and again, we still don't know the full story. We only have fragments of it and parts of it comes from The Master who is notoriously a liar. So we still have to wait and see where that story may go. That's the exciting part. I don't see why that rubs people the wrong way.
