RTD address criticism about his writing style

[Mr Awe]

The plot is a mess in your opinion. It is not in mine, and it is not in others'.

Magic solutions based on things brought up out of the blue are undeniably plot messes. The difference is that some viewers (including you) may be more willing to overlook those than others.

But, you're attacking the wrong person, as I said, I'm glad that RTD had his shot, I appreciate what he's done, and I think he does have talent. I certainly didn't insult him. Mostly praised him but pointed out that, surprise, surprise, he's not perfect.

Mr Awe

 

[Jim Steele]

You're bang on the money tonight mate. How much you like RTD's Who work basically boils down to your tolerance of the phrase "a wizard did it" imho

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Eh, personally I've never seen this as the kind of show that needed to have air-tight plots to maintain it's credibility.

Unlike the Treks, DW has never taken itself all that terribly seriously, and doesn't really require the same high level of internal logic to function.

Exactamundo!

It's wonderful that oldWho got fifty-eleven-billion little kids to watch it at some point during the Jurassic; unfortunately, the salient fact is that it went extinct and stayed that way (which is, pretty much, implicit in "extinct" ).

 

[Mr Awe]

What I'm saying is that calling it his choosen style and leaving the plot as a mess because it's better that way is an excuse for not actually plotting things out better.

He could actually keep a lot his style the same, the characters, interactions, set ups, but, in addition to those, plug up those plot holes and ditch those magic (but oh so easy to write) plot resolutions.

Mr Awe

Eh, personally I've never seen this as the kind of show that needed to have air-tight plots to maintain it's credibility.

Unlike the Treks, DW has never taken itself all that terribly seriously, and doesn't really require the same high level of internal logic to function. I think the fans pay more attention to that stuff than the writers of DW EVER have.

Show me where I said "air-tight"? Can't find it can you? I just want the obvious messes taken care of. No more magical solutions where hordes of Daleks are taken care of by pushing buttons, etc. Out of the blue solutions. Etc.

Doesn't have to be perfectly air tight, just avoid the glaringly bad ones!

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

You're bang on the money tonight mate. How much you like RTD's Who work basically boils down to your tolerance of the phrase "a wizard did it" imho

Thanks, and that's a great way that you put it, a tolerance for wizardy!

Mr Awe

 

[Sci]

The plot is a mess in your opinion. It is not in mine, and it is not in others'.

Magic solutions based on things brought up out of the blue are undeniably plot messes.

No, they're not. Hell, the deus ex machina is a literary tradition that goes back to the time of the ancient Greeks.

They're something that you can't use according to the traditional writing structure (which really ought to be called the "modern" structure, as it's something that really only came into being with the development of Realism/Naturalism), but it's not something that is inherently a plot mess. It's only a plot mess by the standards of Realism/Naturalism.

But, you're attacking the wrong person, as I said, I'm glad that RTD had his shot, I appreciate what he's done, and I think he does have talent. I certainly didn't insult him. Mostly praised him but pointed out that, surprise, surprise, he's not perfect.

Fair enough -- but to say that he's being lazy or making excuses just isn't accurate. He's making choices that are based on a different set of aesthetic standards than you think he ought to, that's all.

 

[Sci]

You're bang on the money tonight mate. How much you like RTD's Who work basically boils down to your tolerance of the phrase "a wizard did it" imho

Thanks, and that's a great way that you put it, a tolerance for wizardy!

Mr Awe

This, I'll agree with. Without a doubt, the Doctor is a wizard, the sonic screwdriver is his magic wand, and Gallifrey is the lost Isle of Avalon.

 

[captcalhoun]

You're mostly correct. Except for the ratings, Doctor Who has had up to 15 million at times during the 1970s, and regularly attracted audiences of 10 - 12 million over it's original run.

and in the 1970s there were 3 channels to choose from. and when one - ITV - went on strike Who's audience figures hit a huge high because it was the only other thing on.

when you're competing against 300+ satellite channels, PS3s, X-Boxes, Wiis, iPods, mobile phones, PCs, Facespace pages and fuck knows what else getting 10.7 million viewers is doing pretty damn well.

 

[hyzmarca]

There weren't any problems with The Sound of the Drums. Villains are allowed to ass-pull. It's why they're called villains. It comes from the ancient Latin terms -an (one who pulls things) and vil (from the ass). It doesn't matter how the Master got XYZ, only that he has it. The only villain archetype that is decidedly not allowed to ass-pull is the chessmaster, due to his reliance on manipulating the hero But the Master ain't no chessmaster.

 

[Professor Zoom]

You're mostly correct. Except for the ratings, Doctor Who has had up to 15 million at times during the 1970s, and regularly attracted audiences of 10 - 12 million over it's original run.

How was it doing in the 1980s?

 

[Haggis and tatties]

It will be fun to see all the literary geniuses with all their published successful work come in here to poo poo him.

I hate this attitude. I can't criticise his work unless I have a comparable career? Balls.

That said, I love RTD, but trying to pass poor writing off as progressive... lol troll

Note: I did not call him a poor writer. I happen to think he's a visonary genius, just a bloody lazy one sometimes.

Who the hell is personally stopping you making any criticisms?

Did you make a criticism, are you a published author...what part of my post was not correct.

Only things that's balls is your fucking attitude.

 

[Jax]

Oh hang on, I just responded to all this where it was posted in the other topic. I'll copy and paste.




See, that's a quote that really gets to me. He seems arrogant and irritating.

"I must look like a vandal, a kid or an amateur… The simple fact is, all those things were planned. All of them were my choice. They’re not lazy, clumsy or desperate."

I think they probably are.

"They’re chosen. I can see more traditional ways of telling those stories, but I’m not interested."

Not capable more like.

"If you don’t like it, if you don’t join in with it then… blimey, these episodes must be nonsensical."

Something either makes sense or it doesn't. These things often don't but he throws so many things in there so that we hopefully won't notice. And sadly, it seems to work.

"But those classical structures can be seen in Primeval, in Demons, in Merlin, in all of them – and yet we stand with millions more viewers. And I think that’s partly why."

I think it's more to do with the Doctor Who name and all that comes with it (Daleks, TARDIS...), the budget and commitment behind it, and the easy publicity.

Yes Bones we get it you hate RTD's Doctor Who

 

[davejames]

Show me where I said "air-tight"? Can't find it can you? I just want the obvious messes taken care of. No more magical solutions where hordes of Daleks are taken care of by pushing buttons, etc. Out of the blue solutions. Etc.

Doesn't have to be perfectly air tight, just avoid the glaringly bad ones!

Mr Awe

Sorry, I was just responding to the general fan sentiment, not your specific post.

And certainly there have been times when plots were resolved FAR too easily on this show, but even then I've only found it mildly annoying. And not something to get upset about or rail against like many fans do.

To me that would be like getting upset over a plot hole in Chuck-- it's just not the kind of show that requires that level of scrutiny.

 

[HappyDayRiot]

Villains are allowed to ass-pull. It's why they're called villains. It comes from the ancient Latin terms -an (one who pulls things) and vil (from the ass). It doesn't matter how the Master got XYZ, only that he has it.

This is a contender for my favourite BBS post ever.

 

[Winterwind]

My biggest criticism with RTD is that he has nice build-ups and shit endings.

 

[TedShatner10]

Sci, I don't think the original series of Doctor Who is that at all, granted time has not been very kind to it, but I enjoyed "Remembrance of the Daleks" more than "The Stolen Earth/Journey's End" (despite the wobbly Daleks) and "The Brain of Morbius" had a interesting villain played very well by Philip Madoc, although on the other hand I found "The Dalek Invasion of Earth" to quite dull and leaden. And the old episodes left a big enough impression on Davies and Moffat to inspire them to resurrect the series and emulate its better aspects, making it the most successful series since Star Trek: The Next Generation.

RTD was a flawed writer and producer, and he was noticably starting to run out of ideas since S4, although however you'd spin it RTD effectively won as a writer and producer, with Chris and Dave imprinted in memories of millions of children. In light of this I find some fan complaints quite grating and off the mark.

 

[Sci]

Sci, I don't think the original series of Doctor Who is that at all, granted time has not been very kind to it, but I enjoyed "Remembrance of the Daleks" more than "The Stolen Earth/Journey's End" (despite the wobbly Daleks) and "The Brain of Morbius" had a interesting villain played very well by Philip Madoc, although on the other hand I found "The Dalek Invasion of Earth" to quite dull and leaden. And the old episodes left a big enough impression on Davies and Moffat to inspire them to resurrect the series and emulate its better aspects, making it the most successful series since Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Certainly. But let's be realistic, too: The current Doctor Who did not become a success because of the brand name built up during the original series.

 

[payndz201]

My view of RTD is that he's fantastic at the character stuff, and an expert at drawing an emotional response from the viewer. What he's less good at, IMO, is plotting, and 'The End Of Time' is a perfect example of that. So many things just happened, with no particular logic or explanation beyond RTD thinking they were cool. The Master now has magic lightning powers and can fly! Why? Well... just because.

The whole "It's all happening right in front of you! Now!" justification strikes me as another way of saying "I had a load of cool ideas that didn't make a lot of sense and couldn't be properly explained, but I was determined to put them in anyway. But look, I'm waving my hands! Move on to the next scene, quick!" It's frustrating, because RTD can undeniably produce awesome, emotionally affecting and well plotted work when he puts his mind to it. 'Children Of Earth', for one. But outside of the emotional scenes, 'TEoT' was a mess, and in retrospect the same can be said for many of his other Doctor Who stories.

 

[stj]

As producer as well as writer, Davies bears much of the responsibility for turning out a superior product. (I haven't seen the old Dr. Who, so I'm not tempted by the stupid but sleazy tactic of bashing the old series instead of making an argument.) Dr. Who, besides a ripping theme song, has superior dialogue, an ability to convey a sense of who the characters are, fast pace, a sense of the dark side that resists wallowing in angst and a sense of humor. With so much going for it, it seems to me the only reason to rant is if you're ticked off about Davies' Homosexual Agenda.

But I personally don't bother to watch Dr. Who anymore.
The apotheosis finales in particular are acutely embarrassing, every bit as juvenile as the old Dr. Who is alleged to be. Playing with tropes is not nearly as creative as some would have you believe.

The basic problem with dismissing plausibility or consistency, instead playing around with the idea that anything can happen, is the old one: If anything can happen, nothing matters. Dr. Who is not creative enough to make up its own world. The upshot is that when all is said and done, the show gets boring. Way too many shows are centered around old home week visitations from Daleks and Davros and the Master, but without the sheen of nostalgia, first hand or borrowed, the show is too feeble to hold my interest very long.

 

[Lindley]

^Let's see if that continues under the new management.

I'm now wondering what would happen in a story co-written by RTD ("it just happens that way!") and David Weber ("must....explain....every....detail....").