RR Union rant.

[Thestral]

Entire towns are economically destroyed because of short-term greed on the part of union leaders that failed to consider the cooperation necessary for long-term survival of the entire company, of which the employees are the part.

I don't wanna hear anything about "entire towns being destroyed because of short-term greed" by unions when we live in the age of Wal-Mart and of factories going overseas because owners realize they can pay Chinese or Mexican workers dirt for wages and rake in 1800s-era profits.

you can flame me all you want...

I'm only going to say it once, because I have no doubt I'll encounter the same uncivil behavior you did, Paul....

Wow, I see mostly polite disagreement here, nothing that I would describe as flaming or uncivil.

In a culture where failing companies can proudly give millions to worthless CEOs, where investment companies brag about how they're fleecing their customers, you think those same companies can be trusted to treat their low-level workers fairly? Where a multi-billion dollar company like Walmart counsels their own employees on how to file for government family assistance and food stamps? No. Unions have not outlived their usefulness.

Amen. Woof.

QFT on all points.

 

[Trekker4747]

I find it suspect that the OP states his observations, someone calls him on the fact he doesn't have all the info on what is going on and then he says, "Oh, no. We had a scanner to listen to their conversation!"

So, OP, let me ask you something? Did you sit there and watch these people out this window all day long? During their entire 8-hour work-shift to make such an observation about what their work habits are like? Because if you did then I find your work habits suspect since you apparently had all-day to stare out a window and listen to a police scanner.

Doing work can suspiciously look and sound like a lot of nothing, they could've been doing a lot of things and just wasn't obvious to you since you're not an expert in railroad construction work. Stop thinking construction work looks like something you'd see in a jeans commercial.

What a parody thread of this one would look like:

So today I arrive at the site to find myself with a huge job ahead of me but we still don't quite have all of the equipment we need to do it. I'm getting ready to start tearing into this spur when I look up and see inside a nearby office building this man sitting at his desk doing "paper work." Jesus, no wonder there are so many unemployed people out there when all this guy is getting paid to do is sit at his desk and just shuffle papers all day long and drink coffee, that business could probably save a lot of money if they just fired his ass. All day I'd look over there and he was just at his desk looking at papers, writing on something and occasionally chatting with his buddy who step into the doorway like every five minutes. He's probably up until next week with as much coffee as this dude drank. Oh, and then he walks into the cubicle farm the next window over and flirts with the girl with the great gams. Yeah, buddy, you've got a chance. Wish I got to work in a nice air-conditioned building and arrange papers all day.

 

[sonak]

U.S. workers are working longer hours than ever, middle and lower-class wages have been mostly stagnant for a generation, economic inequality has skyrocketed, CEO to worker pay ratios have become absurd, job security is basically gone, and your argument is that unions are no longer needed.


That's just absurd. It's the loss of balance between companies and workers through the massive decline in unions that's partially responsible for the mess we're in.

I make $8(about $15,000 a year) an hour, dont preach to me about economic equality, or lack there of. Im not Oppressed, or Depressed, or easily impressed, I dont want anyone elses hand out, and I dont need it! I dont have it that bad, in fact, I have it pretty damn good. I have a NICE vehicle, own my own 2 story home(small as it may be, lol. Home Depot Special, haha) pay for Everything in Cash, am leaving for Vegas for a week and a half in about 3 days, and dont owe anyone except my Father a damn thing. Maybe Im just the 1% that gets it, I dunno. Sure I dont have any kids, or a significant other, I cant afford that right now, when/if I can, then things may change.
I could have a high paying job, and did for a while, but that always gone, always working lifestyle didnt sit well with me, so I took what I had saved, got me something decent, and cashed out.
I now live literally 5 minutes from my job, I work between 30 and 50 hours a week, have very little stress, only the most cursory bills, and still am able to keep a savings of about $5,000.
anyway, that got off topic, my point is, The American Worker doesnt really need a Union, whos main purpose is to forward The Union, to make sure s/he is getting his fair shake, in this day and age that can be done by........ The American Worker, not a proxy that cares more for its own existence and lining the pockets of its leadership.

Unions are proven to raise the wages of their workers and of non-unionized workers around them. I'm sure you'd reject studies that prove that, because you sound like a conservative ideologue.

Also, forgive my skepticism, but I smell b.s. in your story. You make basically minimum wage and yet you can afford a house, vacations, and STILL save thousands? Something's missing.

 

[Paulcpick]

I didnt say anyone HAD flamed me, I said you can flame me all you want.... there's a difference. lol.

and while we're barbing at people, is that all you have to say? no useful comments, just come in here and say DONT DO THAT and poof....
ok, have a nice day.

lol

Yeah, lol, coming in and telling people what not to do is kind of my job as the moderator.

lol



Gee, I guess we have a anecdotal stalemate. What a stimulating debate this has been. Thanks. lol

Also, tossing lol in at random points doesn't actually make anyone lol. It just makes you irritating.

I figured you would catch on that I was poking fun at you, not actually being serious......

 

[Paulcpick]

I find it suspect that the OP states his observations, someone calls him on the fact he doesn't have all the info on what is going on and then he says, "Oh, no. We had a scanner to listen to their conversation!"
So, OP, let me ask you something? Did you sit there and watch these people out this window all day long? During their entire 8-hour work-shift to make such an observation about what their work habits are like? Because if you did then I find your work habits suspect since you apparently had all-day to stare out a window and listen to a police scanner.

Doing work can suspiciously look and sound like a lot of nothing, they could've been doing a lot of things and just wasn't obvious to you since you're not an expert in railroad construction work. Stop thinking construction work looks like something you'd see in a jeans commercial.

What a parody thread of this one would look like:

So today I arrive at the site to find myself with a huge job ahead of me but we still don't quite have all of the equipment we need to do it. I'm getting ready to start tearing into this spur when I look up and see inside a nearby office building this man sitting at his desk doing "paper work." Jesus, no wonder there are so many unemployed people out there when all this guy is getting paid to do is sit at his desk and just shuffle papers all day long and drink coffee, that business could probably save a lot of money if they just fired his ass. All day I'd look over there and he was just at his desk looking at papers, writing on something and occasionally chatting with his buddy who step into the doorway like every five minutes. He's probably up until next week with as much coffee as this dude drank. Oh, and then he walks into the cubicle farm the next window over and flirts with the girl with the great gams. Yeah, buddy, you've got a chance. Wish I got to work in a nice air-conditioned building and arrange papers all day.

Apparently you missed the part where I mentioned that I used to do construction work. I worked as a bullganger for Chicago Bridge & Iron, building Petroleum Tanks, LNG Tanks, Water Towers, Spheres, ect and so forth, and had I at any point worked like I witnessed, I'd have been taken to the gate, payed, and been told siyanora.
As for the rest, yea, because of the late spring-like weather here we aren't milling feed, and since the town was essentially cut in half, we had no business yesterday, so yea, I pretty much had shit else to do yesterday except to watch them.

I make $8(about $15,000 a year) an hour, dont preach to me about economic equality, or lack there of. I am not Oppressed, or Depressed, or easily impressed, I dont want anyone elses hand out, and I dont need it! I dont have it that bad, in fact, I have it pretty damn good. I have a NICE vehicle, own my own 2 story home(small as it may be, lol. Home Depot Special, haha) pay for Everything in Cash, am leaving for Vegas for a week and a half in about 3 days, and dont owe anyone except my Father a damn thing. Maybe Im just the 1% that gets it, I dunno. Sure I dont have any kids, or a significant other, I cant afford that right now, when/if I can, then things may change.
I could have a high paying job, and did for a while, but that always gone, always working lifestyle didnt sit well with me, so I took what I had saved, got me something decent, and cashed out.
I now live literally 5 minutes from my job, I work between 30 and 50 hours a week, have very little stress, only the most cursory bills, and still am able to keep a savings of about $5,000.
anyway, that got off topic, my point is, The American Worker doesnt really need a Union, whos main purpose is to forward The Union, to make sure s/he is getting his fair shake, in this day and age that can be done by........ The American Worker, not a proxy that cares more for its own existence and lining the pockets of its leadership.

Unions are proven to raise the wages of their workers and of non-unionized workers around them. I'm sure you'd reject studies that prove that, because you sound like a conservative ideologue.

Also, forgive my skepticism, but I smell b.s. in your story. You make basically minimum wage and yet you can afford a house, vacations, and STILL save thousands? Something's missing.

Apparently you too missed it.
I made about $60,000-75,000 or so for about a 3 year period, saved every penny I could, slept in cheap ratty hotels, or beat to hell campers, or in my own vehicle a time or two, then dragged up. Went and bought me a small finish it yourself prefabbed 2 story, put it on my Fathers land, just a few hundred yards from his place, came home and started working in my mothers husbands feed mill, and am happy as a doodle bug. The rest is just good money management. Despite what you've been told, it CAN be done.

 

[Misfit Toy]

^Lucky for you that you had family connections to help you.

 

[Paulcpick]

This is true to an extent.

 

[sonak]

I find it suspect that the OP states his observations, someone calls him on the fact he doesn't have all the info on what is going on and then he says, "Oh, no. We had a scanner to listen to their conversation!"
So, OP, let me ask you something? Did you sit there and watch these people out this window all day long? During their entire 8-hour work-shift to make such an observation about what their work habits are like? Because if you did then I find your work habits suspect since you apparently had all-day to stare out a window and listen to a police scanner.

Doing work can suspiciously look and sound like a lot of nothing, they could've been doing a lot of things and just wasn't obvious to you since you're not an expert in railroad construction work. Stop thinking construction work looks like something you'd see in a jeans commercial.

What a parody thread of this one would look like:

So today I arrive at the site to find myself with a huge job ahead of me but we still don't quite have all of the equipment we need to do it. I'm getting ready to start tearing into this spur when I look up and see inside a nearby office building this man sitting at his desk doing "paper work." Jesus, no wonder there are so many unemployed people out there when all this guy is getting paid to do is sit at his desk and just shuffle papers all day long and drink coffee, that business could probably save a lot of money if they just fired his ass. All day I'd look over there and he was just at his desk looking at papers, writing on something and occasionally chatting with his buddy who step into the doorway like every five minutes. He's probably up until next week with as much coffee as this dude drank. Oh, and then he walks into the cubicle farm the next window over and flirts with the girl with the great gams. Yeah, buddy, you've got a chance. Wish I got to work in a nice air-conditioned building and arrange papers all day.

Apparently you missed the part where I mentioned that I used to do construction work. I worked as a bullganger for Chicago Bridge & Iron, building Petroleum Tanks, LNG Tanks, Water Towers, Spheres, ect and so forth, and had I at any point worked like I witnessed, I'd have been taken to the gate, payed, and been told siyanora.
As for the rest, yea, because of the late spring-like weather here we aren't milling feed, and since the town was essentially cut in half, we had no business yesterday, so yea, I pretty much had shit else to do yesterday except to watch them.

I make $8(about $15,000 a year) an hour, dont preach to me about economic equality, or lack there of. I am not Oppressed, or Depressed, or easily impressed, I dont want anyone elses hand out, and I dont need it! I dont have it that bad, in fact, I have it pretty damn good. I have a NICE vehicle, own my own 2 story home(small as it may be, lol. Home Depot Special, haha) pay for Everything in Cash, am leaving for Vegas for a week and a half in about 3 days, and dont owe anyone except my Father a damn thing. Maybe Im just the 1% that gets it, I dunno. Sure I dont have any kids, or a significant other, I cant afford that right now, when/if I can, then things may change.
I could have a high paying job, and did for a while, but that always gone, always working lifestyle didnt sit well with me, so I took what I had saved, got me something decent, and cashed out.
I now live literally 5 minutes from my job, I work between 30 and 50 hours a week, have very little stress, only the most cursory bills, and still am able to keep a savings of about $5,000.
anyway, that got off topic, my point is, The American Worker doesnt really need a Union, whos main purpose is to forward The Union, to make sure s/he is getting his fair shake, in this day and age that can be done by........ The American Worker, not a proxy that cares more for its own existence and lining the pockets of its leadership.

Unions are proven to raise the wages of their workers and of non-unionized workers around them. I'm sure you'd reject studies that prove that, because you sound like a conservative ideologue.

Also, forgive my skepticism, but I smell b.s. in your story. You make basically minimum wage and yet you can afford a house, vacations, and STILL save thousands? Something's missing.

Apparently you too missed it.
I made about $60,000-75,000 or so for about a 3 year period, saved every penny I could, slept in cheap ratty hotels, or beat to hell campers, or in my own vehicle a time or two, then dragged up. Went and bought me a small finish it yourself prefabbed 2 story, put it on my Fathers land, just a few hundred yards from his place, came home and started working in my mothers husbands feed mill, and am happy as a doodle bug. The rest is just good money management. Despite what you've been told, it CAN be done.

I did miss that part in reading it the first time. Still, personal anecdotes are not a good basis from which to make policy. In a society, NO ONE "makes it on their own." They benefit from family or social connections, government programs, their upbringing, the type of education they received, inherited money, etc.

And I haven't been "told" anything. I've studied and read a lot about economics on my own. And it just doesn't work like you think it does. Societies that have strong protection for their workers and invest in their citizens rather than slash services and leave people to fend for themselves do better over time.

 

[horatio83]

Last time I checked working men and middle-class people have been pretty well off in the decades after WWII, the times of high unionization. Unless you make your living mainly via capital income thinking that unions are bad for you is semi-suicidal, especially in times when union power and labour's share of GDP decline.

http://www.frumforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/fedgraph1.png

 

[{ Emilia }]

While there are good individuals in unions, as organizations, I think they are mostly corrupt in the leadership, partly on purpose and partly due to unfortunate, unintended consequences.

I've seen the devastation brought on by unions, when they get so powerful that they get a chokehold on the companies they spring up in that they end up driving said companies out of business or, unfortunately, overseas.

Maybe the most bizarre post I've ever read on tbbs. Congrats.
Unions are evil and corporations are good? Evil, overly powerful unions destroying the country?

Just. so. bizarre.

Compared to Europe there's hardly any employment protection legislation in the US. Your legal system is favouring the corporations over the rights of workers to an insane degree. Yet you still complain about your relatively powerless unions?

Just. so. bizarre.

Reality Distortion Field?
All those evil unions and state regulations are to blame for your economy tanking? You know... it's the other way around.

Just for shits and giggles check out this link to see the regulations in place in Germany and for some reason Germany isn't doing too shabby, eh?
Features of German Labor and Employment Law

It's not unions who killed your economy. It was your stupid administration and an excess of laissez-faire-capitalism.

 

[horatio83]

Totally agree on your point about the corporate power being the single most important problem of our times, disagree though on labour market regulations as you gotta take a closer look.
Now in theory both employment protection as well as unemployment insurance should destroy incentives to work. Yet the latter is absolutely necessary as business cycle induced unemployment is a systemic risk which is privately uninsurable. It's like with fire insurance in a village where all houses are made out of wood, not feasible unless you do it publicly.
Furthermore if you take a look at unemployment stats central European style employment protection has not done so well whereas the Scandinavian style hire-and-fire labour market with high unemployment benefits leads to lower unemployment.
In other words, there are theoretical and empirical reasons for unemployment insurance and against employment protection.

Back to unions, the implicit argument of Nerys seems to be that unions have some market power in the labour market which they use to drive up wages above competitive levels, thus creating unemployment (thus making some of the people they represent unemployed ?) or even driving the industries out of the country. Actually they usually do the opposite, lobby for the continued existence of their particular industry. Sounds bad if you think that the secondary sector is fairly competitive but in the real world there is quite some degree of market power. That's why we have economic clusters, a few big firms produce our stuff and their suppliers settle around them. Then you got positive externalities due to the exchange of knowledge and so on and tata, something like the GM bailout might actually make sense.
In other words, even if you dig hard there is no sound economic argument against unions. Always boils down to plain ol' right-wing propaganda and any working man who believes it is obviously not aware of what his self-interest is.

 

[sonak]

don't forget that right-wing groups and corporate interests spend A LOT of time pouring money into their think tanks, networks, papers, etc. to convince the average worker that unions are bad for them. It's not that the worker is actively working AGAINST his own self interest, he just doesn't know what it is because he's bombarded with corporate propaganda designed to make him stay that way.

 

[iguana_tonante]

While there are good individuals in unions, as organizations, I think they are mostly corrupt in the leadership, partly on purpose and partly due to unfortunate, unintended consequences.

I've seen the devastation brought on by unions, when they get so powerful that they get a chokehold on the companies they spring up in that they end up driving said companies out of business or, unfortunately, overseas.

Maybe the most bizarre post I've ever read on tbbs. Congrats.
Unions are evil and corporations are good? Evil, overly powerful unions destroying the country?

Just. so. bizarre.

Compared to Europe there's hardly any employment protection legislation in the US. Your legal system is favouring the corporations over the rights of workers to an insane degree. Yet you still complain about your relatively powerless unions?

Just. so. bizarre.

Reality Distortion Field?
All those evil unions and state regulations are to blame for your economy tanking? You know... it's the other way around.

Just for shits and giggles check out this link to see the regulations in place in Germany and for some reason Germany isn't doing too shabby, eh?
Features of German Labor and Employment Law

It's not unions who killed your economy. It was your stupid administration and an excess of laissez-faire-capitalism.

I wasn't going to comment that post because I really didn't know where to start, but you nailed it:

Just. so. bizarre.

 

[Amaris]

U.S. workers are working longer hours than ever, middle and lower-class wages have been mostly stagnant for a generation, economic inequality has skyrocketed, CEO to worker pay ratios have become absurd, job security is basically gone, and your argument is that unions are no longer needed.


That's just absurd. It's the loss of balance between companies and workers through the massive decline in unions that's partially responsible for the mess we're in.

I make $8(about $15,000 a year) an hour, dont preach to me about economic equality, or lack there of. Im not Oppressed, or Depressed, or easily impressed, I dont want anyone elses hand out, and I dont need it! I dont have it that bad, in fact, I have it pretty damn good. I have a NICE vehicle, own my own 2 story home(small as it may be, lol. Home Depot Special, haha) pay for Everything in Cash, am leaving for Vegas for a week and a half in about 3 days, and dont owe anyone except my Father a damn thing. Maybe Im just the 1% that gets it, I dunno. Sure I dont have any kids, or a significant other, I cant afford that right now, when/if I can, then things may change.
I could have a high paying job, and did for a while, but that always gone, always working lifestyle didnt sit well with me, so I took what I had saved, got me something decent, and cashed out.
I now live literally 5 minutes from my job, I work between 30 and 50 hours a week, have very little stress, only the most cursory bills, and still am able to keep a savings of about $5,000.
anyway, that got off topic, my point is, The American Worker doesnt really need a Union, whos main purpose is to forward The Union, to make sure s/he is getting his fair shake, in this day and age that can be done by........ The American Worker, not a proxy that cares more for its own existence and lining the pockets of its leadership.

What does the American Worker do when his health benefits are taken away? What does he do if his pay is cut in half, even as the company makes record profits? Gathering as a unified group is one of the greatest measures of power the American Worker has to use as leverage against the company that holds the cards, because there's always going to be someone who will work for less.

There will always be that group of people who will work a $12 an hour job for $3 an hour if it means making just enough money to feed their kids, and there will always be companies ready to take advantage of those people. Unions aren't perfect, but they're still needed. Otherwise, we'd have the same problem we have now with outsourcing; that there would be no jobs for anyone in this country who would want to make a living wage.

Paul, could I get your answer to this, please?

 

[horatio83]

don't forget that right-wing groups and corporate interests spend A LOT of time pouring money into their think tanks, networks, papers, etc. to convince the average worker that unions are bad for them. It's not that the worker is actively working AGAINST his own self interest, he just doesn't know what it is because he's bombarded with corporate propaganda designed to make him stay that way.

I agree that propaganda is the main factor.
But you also gotta ask the question of whether so many people can really be fooled all the time and whether saying that lowerclass people are just too stupid to look through reactionary propaganda is wise.
Isn't the main problem of the left precisely this smug "we educated upper middle-class folks are so much smarter than you stupid rednecks" attitude that has alienated the working class? And haven't it actually been Third Ways guys like Clinton or Blair who have legitimized Reagan's and Thatcher's path away from moderated and towards anarcho-capitalism (à la only Nixon could go to China aka only a left-wing politician can give legitimacy to a right-wing project, be it his own or that of his predecessor)?
It is easy to rant about the enemy, much harder to take a look at ourselves, how we have messed up.

While I am all for fighting against discrimination of any kind, the focus upon "soft" themes like political correctness, identity politics and so on instead of "hard" economic issues might be one problem of the contemporary left.
There is a nice quote by a guy called Sokal which nails it: I confess that I'm an unabashed Old Leftist who never quite understood how deconstruction was supposed to help the working class. And I'm a stodgy old scientist who believes, naively, that there exists an external world, that there exist objective truths about that world, and that my job is to discover some of them.

 

[sonak]

don't forget that right-wing groups and corporate interests spend A LOT of time pouring money into their think tanks, networks, papers, etc. to convince the average worker that unions are bad for them. It's not that the worker is actively working AGAINST his own self interest, he just doesn't know what it is because he's bombarded with corporate propaganda designed to make him stay that way.

I agree that propaganda is the main factor.
But you also gotta ask the question of whether so many people can really be fooled all the time and whether saying that lowerclass people are just too stupid to look through reactionary propaganda is wise.
Isn't the main problem of the left precisely this smug "we educated upper middle-class folks are so much smarter than you stupid rednecks" attitude that has alienated the working class? And haven't it actually been Third Ways guys like Clinton or Blair who have legitimized Reagan's and Thatcher's path away from moderated and towards anarcho-capitalism (à la only Nixon could go to China aka only a left-wing politician can give legitimacy to a right-wing project, be it his own or that of his predecessor)?
It is easy to rant about the enemy, much harder to take a look at ourselves, how we have messed up.

While I am all for fighting against discrimination of any kind, the focus upon "soft" themes like political correctness, identity politics and so on instead of "hard" economic issues might be one problem of the contemporary left.
There is a nice quote by a guy called Sokal which nails it: I confess that I'm an unabashed Old Leftist who never quite understood how deconstruction was supposed to help the working class. And I'm a stodgy old scientist who believes, naively, that there exists an external world, that there exist objective truths about that world, and that my job is to discover some of them.

I don't think it's an issue of stupidity, it's an issue of education. Stupidity means a lack of capacity. I think one of the reasons that conservatives tend to disdain the "intellectual elite" is that in their heart they're scared that a highly educated populace is a left-wing/left-liberal/progressive/whatever we're calling ourselves now one. Their strategy is BASED on keeping workers uneducated about their class interest. They happen to be winning.


As to your second point, I think we're on the same page. I agree that the Left has distracted and divided itself with irrelevant identity politics stuff and needs to go back to more bread and butter issues.

 

[horatio83]

True, it's not a matter of intelligence but of education.

But I also think there is something more sinister at work. Take the nazis, of course they knew that they made everything up but at the same time they also believed their own lies.
It's like with Santa Claus, parents pretend to believe in it for the sake of their children, once they are old enough the kids pretend to believe in it for the sake of the sweets and their parents so nobody really believes in it but it nonetheless works.
Or think about suicide bombers. Do they really believe that the afterlife is so great or do they rather try to convince themselves into believing it via the act, basically bullsh*tting themselves into suicide? That's the tricky thing, human belief can be pretty funky and irrational.

Of course I don't wanna imply that reactionary folks are as horrible as fascists but you see the same pattern with guys like Romney. Moderate decent conservative fellow but in order to play the game he has to pretend to be (respectively becomes) more extreme than he really is.
For me the crucial question is, how do right-wing citizens tick (except for the few who profit from the game)? Are they too young or do they know about Santa Claus, i.e. are they just uneducated and unable to see through the lies or do they bullsh*t themselves?

And there is of course the fairly simply issue of a right-wing political position being an implicit permission to not give a sh*t. Take two random issues, climate being wrecked and people wanting to migrate here. There are tough issues that imply a lot of responsibility. Naturally people yearn to evade this responsibility and a reactionary attitude is an easy way to do so.
To get back to the nazis, Hitler basically told the Germans that they can murder, rape, pillage and burn, i.e. have a lot of fun with him; the main trick being that there is somebody and something, a leader and an ideology, that you can use as excuse for the evil things you will do. Evil often devours yourself, the Stalinist trials being perhaps the clearest political example.
So we gotta ask the question of whether this very pattern of totalitarianism, an ideology that permits you to do something evil with that evil being partly self-destructive, exists in a milder form on the right-wing and is thus able to partly explain why people act against their own interests.
One example from my own life was an experience I made while working in a factory. One guy said he will vote right-wing because they will loosen up employment protection which might make a lazy coworker work harder or get fired. I tried to explain to him how nutty this is but he was merely focused on this coworker, seemingly ignoring his self-interest in this mild form of hatred, anger or envy he was entrenched in.
This also brings us back to the first post in this thread.

 

[Amaris]

^ Good points. I only have one real disagreement, and that is, that for the record, Santa Claus is quite real.

 

[Paulcpick]

What does the American Worker do when his health benefits are taken away? What does he do if his pay is cut in half, even as the company makes record profits? Gathering as a unified group is one of the greatest measures of power the American Worker has to use as leverage against the company that holds the cards, because there's always going to be someone who will work for less.

There will always be that group of people who will work a $12 an hour job for $3 an hour if it means making just enough money to feed their kids, and there will always be companies ready to take advantage of those people. Unions aren't perfect, but they're still needed. Otherwise, we'd have the same problem we have now with outsourcing; that there would be no jobs for anyone in this country who would want to make a living wage.

Paul, could I get your answer to this, please?

Sorry, I've been preparing for my Vegas trip, haven't had time to mess with interwebz boards.

My job doesn't pay health benifits what do I do? I live within my means and pay for it myself. I know its not a solution that anyone's going to like, but, if you can't afford to have, and take care of children, than don't have them. I know that's a rather unorthodox idea, but it works. As a child, I didn't have health insurance until I was 9 years old. By that time, I had burnt my right arm badly, had 2nd and 3rd degree burns, requiring a long hospital stay and a couple of skin grafts t the age of 9 months, after that I had broken my collar bone and had teeth knocked out all before the age of 7..... My parents worked and sacrificed, didn't ask anyone for anything, and guess what? I have all my teeth, I have my right arm, and my collar bone is normal, and my parents aren't in a mountain of debt. I know that's anecdotal, but people make it seem like its impossible for lower middle class people to take care of their selves, when its not. I'm all for OPTIONAL Government insurance, as long as the people who use it pay in some a reasonable amount. But don't force it on anyone, and don't force everyone else to pay for it.

 

[horatio83]

Force seems like a strange word as I cannot imagine that anyone does not want health insurance. Even if you are young and healthy you wanna be covered.
Just for the sake of argument, imagine that your parents wouldn't have been able to pay for your hospital stay, imagine that as a consequence of that you you would have had some chronical issues and not been able to attend school whereas the rich kid with a similar medical problem wouldn't have had any problems.
Equality of opportunities or aristocracy, which shall it be?