RR Union rant.

[Balrog]

^ Good points. I only have one real disagreement, and that is, that for the record, Santa Claus is quite real.

Yeah, but I don't think he runs a union toy shop.

 

[sonak]

What does the American Worker do when his health benefits are taken away? What does he do if his pay is cut in half, even as the company makes record profits? Gathering as a unified group is one of the greatest measures of power the American Worker has to use as leverage against the company that holds the cards, because there's always going to be someone who will work for less.

There will always be that group of people who will work a $12 an hour job for $3 an hour if it means making just enough money to feed their kids, and there will always be companies ready to take advantage of those people. Unions aren't perfect, but they're still needed. Otherwise, we'd have the same problem we have now with outsourcing; that there would be no jobs for anyone in this country who would want to make a living wage.

Paul, could I get your answer to this, please?

Sorry, I've been preparing for my Vegas trip, haven't had time to mess with interwebz boards.

My job doesn't pay health benifits what do I do? I live within my means and pay for it myself. I know its not a solution that anyone's going to like, but, if you can't afford to have, and take care of children, than don't have them. I know that's a rather unorthodox idea, but it works. As a child, I didn't have health insurance until I was 9 years old. By that time, I had burnt my right arm badly, had 2nd and 3rd degree burns, requiring a long hospital stay and a couple of skin grafts t the age of 9 months, after that I had broken my collar bone and had teeth knocked out all before the age of 7..... My parents worked and sacrificed, didn't ask anyone for anything, and guess what? I have all my teeth, I have my right arm, and my collar bone is normal, and my parents aren't in a mountain of debt. I know that's anecdotal, but people make it seem like its impossible for lower middle class people to take care of their selves, when its not. I'm all for OPTIONAL Government insurance, as long as the people who use it pay in some a reasonable amount. But don't force it on anyone, and don't force everyone else to pay for it.

I'm sorry, but your attitude seems to be a combination of "I did fine, therefore others can too"(anecdotal) and "if society is unfair, just suck it up, bow to your masters, and make the best of it." I don't find those arguments persuasive.

Have fun on your trip. I haven't been to Vegas yet, but would love to take a vacation there.

 

[Amaris]

Sorry, I've been preparing for my Vegas trip, haven't had time to mess with interwebz boards.

My job doesn't pay health benifits what do I do? I live within my means and pay for it myself. I know its not a solution that anyone's going to like, but, if you can't afford to have, and take care of children, than don't have them. I know that's a rather unorthodox idea, but it works. As a child, I didn't have health insurance until I was 9 years old. By that time, I had burnt my right arm badly, had 2nd and 3rd degree burns, requiring a long hospital stay and a couple of skin grafts t the age of 9 months, after that I had broken my collar bone and had teeth knocked out all before the age of 7..... My parents worked and sacrificed, didn't ask anyone for anything, and guess what? I have all my teeth, I have my right arm, and my collar bone is normal, and my parents aren't in a mountain of debt. I know that's anecdotal, but people make it seem like its impossible for lower middle class people to take care of their selves, when its not. I'm all for OPTIONAL Government insurance, as long as the people who use it pay in some a reasonable amount. But don't force it on anyone, and don't force everyone else to pay for it.

See, each situation is different. I'm diabetic, and have high blood pressure. My combined medications, when I can afford them, are around $300 a month. That's just to keep me alive, that doesn't count medication for when I become very ill. Regardless of how well I take care of myself, I am going to require medications like these for the rest of my life.

The problem with your idea that the insurance should be optional, is that the larger the insured pool, the lower the costs all around. The government doesn't require a profit, either, so that lowers the cost even more. I mean, to use the anecdote, all one has to do is win the mega millions lottery and one can consider themselves a self made person. They won't have to depend upon others for their needs anymore, but that's not typical in any way.

I work hard. Very hard. 24/7. I don't get paid for it. In fact, it costs me financially and emotionally, not including the time it consumes, and there are no bootstraps to pull. Honestly, I feel that you lucked out, because your situation is not at all typical of the average person.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Health insurance is one way I deviate from my party. I may be one of the few Republicans who believes in full single-party systems but who knows, I may not even be one.

As for this example: The assumption of the OP seems to be that since these workers are union, they cannot be fired, and so they don't feel the need to work hard. That's certainly false (there's no reason union workers would be any less motivated than non-union) but it's a common misconception.

Although I admit I don't know what the rules are, viz. how and when a union worker can be fired. Can anyone confirm?

 

[horatio83]

Sorry, I've been preparing for my Vegas trip, haven't had time to mess with interwebz boards.

My job doesn't pay health benifits what do I do? I live within my means and pay for it myself. I know its not a solution that anyone's going to like, but, if you can't afford to have, and take care of children, than don't have them. I know that's a rather unorthodox idea, but it works. As a child, I didn't have health insurance until I was 9 years old. By that time, I had burnt my right arm badly, had 2nd and 3rd degree burns, requiring a long hospital stay and a couple of skin grafts t the age of 9 months, after that I had broken my collar bone and had teeth knocked out all before the age of 7..... My parents worked and sacrificed, didn't ask anyone for anything, and guess what? I have all my teeth, I have my right arm, and my collar bone is normal, and my parents aren't in a mountain of debt. I know that's anecdotal, but people make it seem like its impossible for lower middle class people to take care of their selves, when its not. I'm all for OPTIONAL Government insurance, as long as the people who use it pay in some a reasonable amount. But don't force it on anyone, and don't force everyone else to pay for it.

See, each situation is different. I'm diabetic, and have high blood pressure. My combined medications, when I can afford them, are around $300 a month. That's just to keep me alive, that doesn't count medication for when I become very ill. Regardless of how well I take care of myself, I am going to require medications like these for the rest of my life.

The problem with your idea that the insurance should be optional, is that the larger the insured pool, the lower the costs all around. The government doesn't require a profit, either, so that lowers the cost even more. I mean, to use the anecdote, all one has to do is win the mega millions lottery and one can consider themselves a self made person. They won't have to depend upon others for their needs anymore, but that's not typical in any way.

I work hard. Very hard. 24/7. I don't get paid for it. In fact, it costs me financially and emotionally, not including the time it consumes, and there are no bootstraps to pull. Honestly, I feel that you lucked out, because your situation is not at all typical of the average person.

I hope that you get well through life despite your medical problems.

I think you said two very important things. First, that you work hard independent of whether there is universal health insurance or not. It is actually very hard to imagine that and how universal health insurance is supposed to destroy work incentives.
Second, that with private health insurance you run into adverse selection problems. Insurance companies cannot screen applicants perfectly so they calculate some average fee but this average fee is too high for healthy folks so they don't buy any insurance, then the average fee has to rise a bit, more people opt out and so on until only high-risk people like yourself can get expensive insurance.
This is a serious market failure and via making health insurance mandatory you solve it.

Furthermore a quick glance on US health expenditures and life expectancy as two simple proxies for input and output show how inefficient the system is. Deng Xiaoping said that it doesn't matter if the cat is black or white as long as she catches mice and in my opinion this is the only sound approach to economic problems. Be pragmatic, look at what works and forget ideology and words like capitalism and socialism.

 

[sonak]

Health insurance is one way I deviate from my party. I may be one of the few Republicans who believes in full single-party systems but who knows, I may not even be one.

As for this example: The assumption of the OP seems to be that since these workers are union, they cannot be fired, and so they don't feel the need to work hard. That's certainly false (there's no reason union workers would be any less motivated than non-union) but it's a common misconception.

Although I admit I don't know what the rules are, viz. how and when a union worker can be fired. Can anyone confirm?

union workers can certainly be fired, it's just that usually there has to be a verified and legitimate reason, documentation on the issue, etc. Often the worker gets defended and represented by a union steward. Unions give a worker a measure of security, it doesn't guarantee them life-time employment.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Although I admit I don't know what the rules are, viz. how and when a union worker can be fired. Can anyone confirm?

That would depend on the specifics of the labor agreement, would it not?

Generally, a union will seek For Cause requirements and many employers are willing to agree to this, but I can't speak to this specific situation.