RR Union rant.

[Paulcpick]

So today at work, I'm getting to see union workers(railroad) in action, and I'm not impressed. Its like watching people work in slow motion. They've been here for 3 days and ain't done shit, today atrain with about 15 pieces of equipment got here about 11:00, its now 2 pm and theyve got 2 pieces of equipment off it. They are all siting in their equipment talking back and forth on their radios, except for the 2 throwing pine cones at a pine tree. All of this while they've got the town I live in effectively cut in half. They get here at 7, start wondering around until their 30 minute 10 am break, then wander around some more and take 1 1/2 hour lunch breaks, then they go home at 3:30. These people get high pay, benefits, short work days, and don't do jack. If this is how all unions work, then maybe unions have outlived there usefulness, and should be done away with...

 

[Misfit Toy]

How do you know their bosses have everything in place for them to do their job? Perhaps ther's a piece of vital equipment that has to be there prior to start? Maybe management assured them that it would be in place, but management dropped the ball and it got lost in a three martini lunch.

It's all baseless speculation. Don't blame the unions until you have a few more facts to back up your claim.

 

[Paulcpick]

No, they had everything they needed, They have radio's, we have 2 scanners(my coworker is a volunteer fire fighter for one of the Houston districts, so we keep the scanners going) here and we've been paying attention to them.... about 15 minutes ago, they finally decided to pull the equipment off the train(exact words were "I guess we should get the stuff offof here before it gets late") but the train is still here, blocking 4 of the 6 rail crossings in town. Only the two end ones, which are 3 miles apart are unblocked.

 

[Paulcpick]

I mean, hey don't get me wrong, I'm all for standing around and getting paid for it, but stand around after you get your shit done, not while its impeding an entire town.

 

[the 4th hanson bro]

Use the actions of a few people to jump to a conclusion that probably isn't accurate. Maybe the guys in your town are just lazy s.o.bs who don't give a crap.

Nice generalization there.

 

[Paulcpick]

That's very possible, but what's the excuse for sending 30 lazy s.o.b.s to a very big, very expensive job?
And besides, as an employee, those people represent and are representatives of their company and their union, right?
I mean, I can only judge by what I've seen and heard with my own ears and eyes, and I'm out impressed.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Why not ask to work for them and do it yourself? See if you can do a better job.

 

[Amaris]

That's very possible, but what's the excuse for sending 30 lazy s.o.b.s to a very big, very expensive job?
And besides, as an employee, those people represent and are representatives of their company and their union, right?
I mean, I can only judge by what I've seen and heard with my own ears and eyes, and I'm out impressed.

I get where you're coming from, but I'm not sure the union's to blame. A lazy guy's going to be lazy, union or no. There may be some hard working guys there who can't do anything because a lazy guy won't get his butt moving. I think we've all seen that before.

 

[the 4th hanson bro]

And besides, as an employee, those people represent and are representatives of their company and their union, right?
I mean, I can only judge by what I've seen and heard with my own ears and eyes, and I'm out impressed.

You're right of course. All union workers are exactly the same and all unions are bad.

You sound like the guy who decides to take the stairs at work, who on the first day falls and breaks his leg. With one data point he decides "stairs are bad, they hurt people" and refuses to take the stairs anywhere ever again.

 

[Paulcpick]

well theres damn sure a problem some where....
you can flame me all you want, or put words in my mouth, but the simple fact is, I was NoT inspired with what I saw. In Fact, I was pretty damn ticked off by it.
When you have a group of atleast 30 people, probably a fair bit more all working in slow motion, and standing around for hours on end, something somewhere isnt right, that whole group needed a boot on their ass.
I know Construction Workers, and Equipment Operators I grew up around them, I work with them, hell I was one for a while, and thats not how we work. You roll in, get the shit done, done right, done safe, and go home ASAP.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I'm only going to say it once, because I have no doubt I'll encounter the same uncivil behavior you did, Paul. But there are indeed problems with unions in many cases.

While there are good individuals in unions, as organizations, I think they are mostly corrupt in the leadership, partly on purpose and partly due to unfortunate, unintended consequences. Some things, I think, began with good intentions and in their day, accomplished a lot, but when you take away incentive-based pay (versus seniority-based pay) and make it damn near impossible to fire people who don't perform, what incentive is there to excel? This is very similar to what you often see in government workers, who are under a similar pay structure.

I've seen the devastation brought on by unions, when they get so powerful that they get a chokehold on the companies they spring up in that they end up driving said companies out of business or, unfortunately, overseas. (Or, if we're more fortunate than that, to a right-to-work state.) Entire towns are economically destroyed because of short-term greed on the part of union leaders that failed to consider the cooperation necessary for long-term survival of the entire company, of which the employees are the part. In other words, what should be a symbiotic relationship--and what I think was originally intended to be one by the first founders of unions--becomes parasitic and consumes the host.

As far as the important part of the role unions once played, such as getting needed safety legislation into place, overtime legislation, and required meal breaks, as much as I distrust the government, the legal framework in place does seem to serve reasonably well. I do not work for a unionized company, but feel that were there an incident that jeopardized me in any way, the state and federal government would offer sufficient avenues for recourse. Nor am I some poor, abused peon just because I don't have a union rep. (Indeed, I think the relationship I have with my superiors is better because I can approach them and have an actual conversation that isn't constantly filled with implicit threats from a union.)

Overall...I'd say that aside from some extraordinary circumstances, such as extremely dangerous jobs, where extra vigilance is required to protect life and limb, unions have outlived their usefulness.

 

[Misfit Toy]

If disagreement is "uncivil" then please oh PLEASE forgive the persecution.

In a culture where failing companies can proudly give millions to worthless CEOs, where investment companies brag about how they're fleecing their customers, you think those same companies can be trusted to treat their low-level workers fairly? Where a multi-billion dollar company like Walmart counsels their own employees on how to file for government family assistance and food stamps? No. Unions have not outlived their usefulness.

 

[sonak]

I'm only going to say it once, because I have no doubt I'll encounter the same uncivil behavior you did, Paul. But there are indeed problems with unions in many cases.

While there are good individuals in unions, as organizations, I think they are mostly corrupt in the leadership, partly on purpose and partly due to unfortunate, unintended consequences. Some things, I think, began with good intentions and in their day, accomplished a lot, but when you take away incentive-based pay (versus seniority-based pay) and make it damn near impossible to fire people who don't perform, what incentive is there to excel? This is very similar to what you often see in government workers, who are under a similar pay structure.

I've seen the devastation brought on by unions, when they get so powerful that they get a chokehold on the companies they spring up in that they end up driving said companies out of business or, unfortunately, overseas. (Or, if we're more fortunate than that, to a right-to-work state.) Entire towns are economically destroyed because of short-term greed on the part of union leaders that failed to consider the cooperation necessary for long-term survival of the entire company, of which the employees are the part. In other words, what should be a symbiotic relationship--and what I think was originally intended to be one by the first founders of unions--becomes parasitic and consumes the host.

As far as the important part of the role unions once played, such as getting needed safety legislation into place, overtime legislation, and required meal breaks, as much as I distrust the government, the legal framework in place does seem to serve reasonably well. I do not work for a unionized company, but feel that were there an incident that jeopardized me in any way, the state and federal government would offer sufficient avenues for recourse. Nor am I some poor, abused peon just because I don't have a union rep. (Indeed, I think the relationship I have with my superiors is better because I can approach them and have an actual conversation that isn't constantly filled with implicit threats from a union.)

Overall...I'd say that aside from some extraordinary circumstances, such as extremely dangerous jobs, where extra vigilance is required to protect life and limb, unions have outlived their usefulness.

U.S. workers are working longer hours than ever, middle and lower-class wages have been mostly stagnant for a generation, economic inequality has skyrocketed, CEO to worker pay ratios have become absurd, job security is basically gone, and your argument is that unions are no longer needed.


That's just absurd. It's the loss of balance between companies and workers through the massive decline in unions that's partially responsible for the mess we're in.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

you can flame me all you want...

I'm only going to say it once, because I have no doubt I'll encounter the same uncivil behavior you did, Paul....

Wow, I see mostly polite disagreement here, nothing that I would describe as flaming or uncivil.

In a culture where failing companies can proudly give millions to worthless CEOs, where investment companies brag about how they're fleecing their customers, you think those same companies can be trusted to treat their low-level workers fairly? Where a multi-billion dollar company like Walmart counsels their own employees on how to file for government family assistance and food stamps? No. Unions have not outlived their usefulness.

Amen. Woof.

 

[Captain_Nick]

My god, I want their jobs

 

[Paulcpick]

U.S. workers are working longer hours than ever, middle and lower-class wages have been mostly stagnant for a generation, economic inequality has skyrocketed, CEO to worker pay ratios have become absurd, job security is basically gone, and your argument is that unions are no longer needed.


That's just absurd. It's the loss of balance between companies and workers through the massive decline in unions that's partially responsible for the mess we're in.

I make $8(about $15,000 a year) an hour, dont preach to me about economic equality, or lack there of. Im not Oppressed, or Depressed, or easily impressed, I dont want anyone elses hand out, and I dont need it! I dont have it that bad, in fact, I have it pretty damn good. I have a NICE vehicle, own my own 2 story home(small as it may be, lol. Home Depot Special, haha) pay for Everything in Cash, am leaving for Vegas for a week and a half in about 3 days, and dont owe anyone except my Father a damn thing. Maybe Im just the 1% that gets it, I dunno. Sure I dont have any kids, or a significant other, I cant afford that right now, when/if I can, then things may change.
I could have a high paying job, and did for a while, but that always gone, always working lifestyle didnt sit well with me, so I took what I had saved, got me something decent, and cashed out.
I now live literally 5 minutes from my job, I work between 30 and 50 hours a week, have very little stress, only the most cursory bills, and still am able to keep a savings of about $5,000.
anyway, that got off topic, my point is, The American Worker doesnt really need a Union, whos main purpose is to forward The Union, to make sure s/he is getting his fair shake, in this day and age that can be done by........ The American Worker, not a proxy that cares more for its own existence and lining the pockets of its leadership.

 

[Amaris]

U.S. workers are working longer hours than ever, middle and lower-class wages have been mostly stagnant for a generation, economic inequality has skyrocketed, CEO to worker pay ratios have become absurd, job security is basically gone, and your argument is that unions are no longer needed.


That's just absurd. It's the loss of balance between companies and workers through the massive decline in unions that's partially responsible for the mess we're in.

I make $8(about $15,000 a year) an hour, dont preach to me about economic equality, or lack there of. Im not Oppressed, or Depressed, or easily impressed, I dont want anyone elses hand out, and I dont need it! I dont have it that bad, in fact, I have it pretty damn good. I have a NICE vehicle, own my own 2 story home(small as it may be, lol. Home Depot Special, haha) pay for Everything in Cash, am leaving for Vegas for a week and a half in about 3 days, and dont owe anyone except my Father a damn thing. Maybe Im just the 1% that gets it, I dunno. Sure I dont have any kids, or a significant other, I cant afford that right now, when/if I can, then things may change.
I could have a high paying job, and did for a while, but that always gone, always working lifestyle didnt sit well with me, so I took what I had saved, got me something decent, and cashed out.
I now live literally 5 minutes from my job, I work between 30 and 50 hours a week, have very little stress, only the most cursory bills, and still am able to keep a savings of about $5,000.
anyway, that got off topic, my point is, The American Worker doesnt really need a Union, whos main purpose is to forward The Union, to make sure s/he is getting his fair shake, in this day and age that can be done by........ The American Worker, not a proxy that cares more for its own existence and lining the pockets of its leadership.

What does the American Worker do when his health benefits are taken away? What does he do if his pay is cut in half, even as the company makes record profits? Gathering as a unified group is one of the greatest measures of power the American Worker has to use as leverage against the company that holds the cards, because there's always going to be someone who will work for less.

There will always be that group of people who will work a $12 an hour job for $3 an hour if it means making just enough money to feed their kids, and there will always be companies ready to take advantage of those people. Unions aren't perfect, but they're still needed. Otherwise, we'd have the same problem we have now with outsourcing; that there would be no jobs for anyone in this country who would want to make a living wage.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

you can flame me all you want...

No one has flamed you. If you can't handle your points being challenged, don't fall back on false accusations to play the victim.

I'm only going to say it once, because I have no doubt I'll encounter the same uncivil behavior you did, Paul.

And you fall back on the false victimization routine so often that it's become borderline trolling. From now on if you're going to throw out accusations like this you better be prepared to cite examples. I'm tired of you resorting to these tactics in every other thread dealing with political or controversial subjects. Argue your points honestly without poisoning the well against your fellow posters in the first sentence.

 

[Paulcpick]

I didnt say anyone HAD flamed me, I said you can flame me all you want.... there's a difference. lol.

and while we're barbing at people, is that all you have to say? no useful comments, just come in here and say DONT DO THAT and poof....
ok, have a nice day.

lol

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I didnt say anyone HAD flamed me, I said you can flame me all you want.... there's a difference. lol.

and while we're barbing at people, is that all you have to say? no useful comments, just come in here and say DONT DO THAT and poof....
ok, have a nice day.

lol

Yeah, lol, coming in and telling people what not to do is kind of my job as the moderator.

lol

If no one had flamed you, why bring it up? Why invite the possibility? It's just a means of playing the victim and causing trouble instead of arguing your point.

As far as your quaint little rant, you took the alleged actions (assuming you were truthful) of a small group of union workers you were observing without knowing the whole story and extended it into a call for doing away with all unions. Everyone else rebutted your points just fine, but really, going by your ridiculous logic all I have to do is say I watched five union workers bust their ass on a loading dock today and therefore by extension all unions and union workers across the nation are hardworking people lacking in any faults and should enjoy unconditional support.

Gee, I guess we have a anecdotal stalemate. What a stimulating debate this has been. Thanks. lol

Also, tossing lol in at random points doesn't actually make anyone lol. It just makes you irritating.