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Spoilers Rosa grade and discussion thread

How do you rate Rosa?


  • Total voters
    99
But is it well-executed? If that subplot were then more people would be giving resolute praise and not questioning his need to be in the story.

You can't really judge the overall audience reaction based on the small, self-selected sample of complainers on the Internet. People inclined to complain are usually more vocal than people who are satisfied with something, so the sample of people who choose to speak up of their own volition is always going to be biased toward the negative, and toward the more outspoken segment of the audience.

Also, as a rule, the stronger the positive reaction a thing generates in some people, the stronger the negative reaction it will generate in others. They're two sides of the same coin. If something is able to provoke strong feelings in its audience, then some of those feelings will be positive and others negative. You often hear the most fiercely vocal complaints toward the same things that also generate the most glowing praise.


A random figure with no build-up or depth just means the audience hates what he's talking about and not him - and the goal is to hate the villain.

I'm not sure that's true in this case. The real "villain" here was the institutional prejudice of 1950s America. Rosa Parks was the hero of the story and the system enforced by James Blake and Officer Mason was the villain. Krasko was more of a catalyst for the plot, something to create a problem that the Doctor & co. needed to resolve in order to keep Rosa's heroism intact. Krasko shouldn't have been a dominant presence, because that would've distracted from the real conflict of the episode. But he still needed to be there, because a straight historical would've risked conveying the unfortunate impression that the Doctor and her friends "inspired" Rosa in the first place.
 
If he is a random character. It is possible he will make a return and to find out there's more than expected about him so we can hate him as much as we did the townspeople and more, the way such an epic villain needs to be felt. He did seem to recognize a TARDIS, though anyone would based on its audible hum - at least when the show was made in 1963. :)

The random character idea, if he is a one-off, is interesting. But is it well-executed? If that subplot were then more people would be giving resolute praise and not questioning his need to be in the story. A random figure with no build-up or depth just means the audience hates what he's talking about and not him - and the goal is to hate the villain. We hate what he's doing but has anybody said they hated him? Because there's no connection. Is the guy just a crackpot in terms of being a convict with a false belief or is he supposed to be more vile than the Master but acting more nuanced than the Master ever would? The story, if it was going to chuck in a character, might have helped to have enough background info and not just perceived motivation. And yet going to time periods to change only one hyperfocused aspect... the more I think of it and thank you as well for mentioning it, the more I don't dislike... but I still feel more could have been done.

The episode still had so much strength in the historical aspects it would have been better off as a straight historical. Chibnall may have been onto something with Krackhead or whatever his name was, but he wasn't that polished. But to make up for that he was way too myopic in scope. A villain should be a little stronger and the episode was already loaded with nasty townspeople, who did a far better job with the sense of palpable threat.

To me you don't need him really to have more depth because he is in essence the sc-fi gimmick of the story more than a full fledged character. He also represents a idea in "racism" but you don't really need to explore that much through him since he isn't a serious regular or even the guest star who is more important in Rosa Parks. I think they went with Rosa Parks because they felt the lady's role wasn't well explored in movies or tv and also because she doesn't have a violent end like Martin Luther KIng or several others which might have been to much of a depressing ending for a show that is family friendly.

Jason
 
The real "villain" here was the institutional prejudice of 1950s America.
+1
Krasko, in addition to being a problem for the Doctor to work out, also suggests that while things improve, hatred is a hunger that never dies.* While we must never be cowardly or cruel, we must also remain ever vigilant.

*Thanks to Robert Bloch for the cross-franchise reference.
 
This was an truly excellent episode. A delicate and important topic was handled well. The characters keep getting better and better. Obviously the best episode in the season thus far and one of the best Who episodes altogether.

9/10
 
This was an truly excellent episode. A delicate and important topic was handled well. The characters keep getting better and better. Obviously the best episode in the season thus far and one of the best Who episodes altogether.

9/10

I don't think I liked it that much. I did like it but I liked the first episode of the season a little better but it is much better than the one on the alien sand planet. A interesting episode to compare it to IMO is the "DS9" episode "Far Beyond the Stars" which kind of has the same theme. I think "DS9" did it better. Maybe the difference is that Sisko was experiencing the racism were as in this episode they are more observing it. I'm trying to think of "Doctor Who" episodes to compare it to that dealt with racism and i'm drawling a blank but then again I didn't become a fan until 2005 so I am still not familiar with the older seasons.

I think I would have played up the stuff were the Who Crew(My nickname for them. Everyone try and make it stick:)) have to sort of go along with the racism in order to preserve the timeline which you see at the end where they can't move off the bus. Create some personal drama of having to sort of work with the racist in order to stop the racist. Granted that then compares to the "Quantum Leap" episode were Sam has to pretend he is all in on Klu Klux Klan stuff so I guess no matter what angle you go for, someone will have already did some kind of version of it since there are only so many stories than can be told. I once heard their was only 7 stories and everything is a variation of those 7 stories but I might have the number wrong.

Jason
 
I'm trying to think of "Doctor Who" episodes to compare it to that dealt with racism and i'm drawling a blank but then again I didn't become a fan until 2005 so I am still not familiar with the older seasons.

There are a few Classic stories that do indirectly deal with the issue. The ones that spring to mind are the Jon Pertwee story The Mutants which shows a kind of apartheid system, and Sylvester McCoy's Remembrance of the Daleks which includes Ratcliffe who appears to have been written to be a member of the British Union of Fascists prior to World War 2 and who kept those views, forming The Association and assisting the Renegade Daleks in their plans. Another character held the same views and his mother, who was a sweet old lady who ran a boarding house, had a "no blacks, no Irish" sign in the window. But to my recollection nothing dealt with the issue as head-on as this episode did.
 
I do recall Martha in the Shakesphere episode talking about her being black and just walking around in a time when slavery was a thing but they kind of just dismissed the idea from what I recall. Also not "Who" but in season 2 "Torchwood" I assume some of the children the people in charge felt it would have been fine with sacrificing to the aliens was something to do with racism but i'm not British so I might be wrong on that.


Jason
 
The Daleks were always an allegory about racism and Nazism, probably never more so than in "Genesis of the Daleks." I think "The Sensorites" was something of an allegory on racism and colonialism, since the benevolent Sensorites were being murdered by humans who saw them as monsters.


I do recall Martha in the Shakesphere episode talking about her being black and just walking around in a time when slavery was a thing but they kind of just dismissed the idea from what I recall.

Well, slavery has been a thing throughout most of history, but it wasn't usually linked to beliefs in racial superiority until after Shakespeare's day. According to what I learned in school, Europeans at that time saw Africans as exotic, but not inferior. The really virulent modern kind of racism was basically invented by rich plantation owners in the Americas. The labor conditions necessary to make cotton plantations profitable were brutal and murderous even by the conventional standards of slavery (since traditionally slaves were still considered human and were often able to earn their freedom and be treated as equal members of society), so the plantation owners promulgated the idea that Africans were subhuman so that they could justify working them to death like animals.

Here's an article I found:

http://community.bowdoin.edu/news/2016/11/how-did-shakespeare-think-about-the-issue-of-race/
At the time Shakespeare was writing—the late 1500s and early 1600s—England was not yet a major global player, said Kitch, but the expanding series of trade routes being established by merchant-adventurers like Sir John Hawkins, were laying the foundation for what would be the world’s biggest empire 150 years later. “The main empires in Shakespeare’s day were the Dutch, the Spanish, the Venetians and the Ottoman Turks. If you saw a person of color in London four hundred years ago,” said Kitch, “he was more likely to be a slave-owner than a slave.”

So while there was not established racism in the modern sense, there was a suspicion of darker skinned people—Moors from North Africa (“blackamoors” as they were often termed)—and indeed Queen Elizabeth I issued a proclamation that they be expelled. This hostility though, said Kitch, was more due to religious and political concerns than racial ones: Moors were likely to be closely associated with the Spanish empire, with whom England was at war for much of the time Shakespeare was writing.

That's a good point about England not being a global power yet. The idea that whites were superior to all other races couldn't really emerge until Europe had become a dominant world power, allowing its people to think that they'd come out on top because of intrinsic superiority.
 
I voted “brilliant”.

She is fully The Doctor. Great job.

When Rosa was getting arrested, and Rise Up started...:wah:
 
I'm not sure that's true in this case. The real "villain" here was the institutional prejudice of 1950s America. Rosa Parks was the hero of the story and the system enforced by James Blake and Officer Mason was the villain. Krasko was more of a catalyst for the plot, something to create a problem that the Doctor & co. needed to resolve in order to keep Rosa's heroism intact. Krasko shouldn't have been a dominant presence, because that would've distracted from the real conflict of the episode. But he still needed to be there, because a straight historical would've risked conveying the unfortunate impression that the Doctor and her friends "inspired" Rosa in the first place.

Well, I agree that the real villain was prejudice, although not just "institutional" as you indicate. However, that does not mean that they couldn't have developed a better villain for the Doctor and gang to defeat while Rosa fought prejudice. Krasko just fell flat, which left us watching the Dr struggle with bus scheduling and passenger counts!
 
Maybe the difference is that Sisko was experiencing the racism were as in this episode they are more observing it.

That's part of the problem with Rosa. If we posit that racism is the true adversary, the Doctor and friends were just observers in that struggle They did nothing in that struggle. Just kept history from being tampered with. That's less satisfying than a more active role. Although, Chibnall was hemmed in because he couldn't have the Doctor inspire Rosa or otherwise diminish her. It's a tough balancing act.

However, in the end, if they had written a more developed and dynamic villain, it would have forced the Doctor's role to be more active and still not diminish Rosa.
 
The Daleks were always an allegory about racism and Nazism, probably never more so than in "Genesis of the Daleks." I think "The Sensorites" was something of an allegory on racism and colonialism, since the benevolent Sensorites were being murdered by humans who saw them as monsters.




Well, slavery has been a thing throughout most of history, but it wasn't usually linked to beliefs in racial superiority until after Shakespeare's day. According to what I learned in school, Europeans at that time saw Africans as exotic, but not inferior. The really virulent modern kind of racism was basically invented by rich plantation owners in the Americas. The labor conditions necessary to make cotton plantations profitable were brutal and murderous even by the conventional standards of slavery (since traditionally slaves were still considered human and were often able to earn their freedom and be treated as equal members of society), so the plantation owners promulgated the idea that Africans were subhuman so that they could justify working them to death like animals.

Here's an article I found:

http://community.bowdoin.edu/news/2016/11/how-did-shakespeare-think-about-the-issue-of-race/


That's a good point about England not being a global power yet. The idea that whites were superior to all other races couldn't really emerge until Europe had become a dominant world power, allowing its people to think that they'd come out on top because of intrinsic superiority.

England was not the beginning of that specific slave trade, it was a more...continental affair at first.
I could be mistaken, but in terms of Shakespeare Code etc, Slavery was actually pretty much always illegal in Britain itself. The bits and pieces of the Empire, usually through ‘private’ companies rather than direct governmental or royal input, that had to do with the Slave Trade would always launder their money as it were....buy some slaves off the Tribes in Africa that did the capturing (or steal them etc from the European Catholic Empire dealers...though that’s a complex bit of history in itself...) take them to the American colonies (including the Caribbean, though again, complex history there as to who was in charge of any given chunk at which time) sell them off, buy something nice and handy like cotton or spices etc to sell back in the home markets. Eventually, the Crown and Government declare it illegal even off the British mainland,and promptly use naval power to shut the whole thing down sort of from the inside. They called it the Triangle when we were taught it schools. It’s a very very complex chain of events, and really ties into all sorts of bits of mid twentieth century history.
America of course didn’t fully get slavery off its books till the end of the twentieth century or early twenty first. I forget which, there was a documentary covering its last days...Michael Moore possibly.

The idea of ‘racial superiority’ only kicks in after Britain declared the trade illegal, because it comes out of all that nasty pseudo science floating around the late nineteenth and early twentieth century...Marie stopes and the eugenicists, Darwinists even, and of course the Nazi’s. Prior to that, things are very different, especially with global travel not exactly being easy and for Britain things like the existing class system and feudal hangovers (as well as existing slavery laws) meant that ‘slavery’ as we tend to think of it had its own cousins here (servant is usually a nice gloss over a very similar sort of behaviour towards fellow humans) not to mention things like ‘transportation’ etc. There were of course white slaves mixed in to the colonies because of things like this. Nasty period of history, a real ‘darkest before the dawn’ sort of moment, when it was finally done away with.
Most of this is from memory of what we were taught in the nineties history and geography syllabus, so I am a bit rusty. It’s not a nice easy ‘goodies and baddies’ narrative sadly. Anne Rice did an interesting job writing about some of the French and American history in her straight historical novels set in New Orleans, but I can’t speak as to their historical accuracy either.
These days, there is still very much a fight against modern slavery...either the off the books kind with horrific stuff to do with people smuggling or the more obvious kinds you see in bits of North Africa and the Gulf States. It’s deeply unpleasant, and the more governments can get behind actually sorting the abhorrent practice out once and for all the better.

Edit: mid nineteenth century history. That’s when the beginning of the end was for the Slave Trade as such.
It strongly predates the British Empire as to its beginnings, and Europe was already a dominant world power...for a given definition...for thousands of years before that. The Greek and Roman Empires sort of segueing with each other and the Egyptian Empire...then what we used to call the Dark Ages, where the Middle Eastern empires brush up against (and very far into) European Nations, before we get to The Age Of Empires, with basically every nation formerly conquered (and enslaved, naturally) by the Antiquity Empires having a go at Empire Bulding. Slavery doesn’t feature as such until the Spanish, Portuguese etc start making inroads in trade etc with Africa. Then you get to the triangle period. That’s it for my knowledge as far as the European and Classical sides of it go. Most else is a bit sketchy and more off topic. Who doesn’t really cover it much, no. Ghost Light and Remembrance do very decent stuff around some the underlying ideas of the racial purity nastiness, but it’s not really directly correlated.

Segregation and it’s brand of evil is more about perverted science and ideology rather than the direct result of the slave trade, except in the obvious manner as to how America ended up with an ethnically diverse population in the first place.
 
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Wow that was a really powerful episode. One of the best historical figure episodes ever (this and Vincent would be my two favourites from the new series). And it was a great introduction for my kids to one of the true heroes of our past. While they had known that racism was a thing and had been especially bad in the past, this really shocked them and the idea that people used to be segregated by skin colour truly horrified them. And while it was good to see that Ryan was the one who got rid of Krasko, I can't be the only person who was hoping Ryan would punch him in the face first.
 
However, I have to say Graham has been a delight and I can't believe how much he's the standout character. His reactions throughout the episode are so good. His heartbroken response to being told to stay on the bus? Perfect. I was very afraid they were going to have him drive the bus to fix history.
Graham is fast moving up my list of favourite New Who companions. And that's after only three episodes. And yeah I thought his reaction to having to stay on the bus was perfect. It's one thing to be part of such a significant part of history, but his obvious shame at being part of the reason Rosa was arrested was great. Even though it had a good long term result and was necessary for keeping history on track, it would suck to be part of the reason for someone being arrested and their life effectively ruined. I imagine being there myself and I think I'd struggle not to a) punch the driver and b) sit down beside Rosa and get kicked off myself.

By the way, the acknowledgment that Yaz is Muslim was so casual I almost missed it.

This is the way I like to see diversity handled. A simple "it's no big deal" acknowledgement.
 
I changed my mind.

I still love this episode and wouldn't change my score but I feel it could have been told without Krasko. There was really no need at all for a villain.
 
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