Root of all the ENT bashing/hating?

[Captain X]

startrekwatcher said:
The show had its flaws but it did often use pre-existing openings or puzzle pieces left by other Trek films or series to expand on or use to their benefit--considering Cochrane as the pilot in "Future Tense",

That actually isn't a very good example. I think the Brannon Braga termed "continuity porn" fits that better than anything. Rather like having the humans settle on Ceti Alpha V in Twilight.

tying together the Augments with the Klingon forehead issue which provided a rather clever explanation as to the human-look and the more refined behavior of the TOS Klingons.

Which is a better example, despite the criticism I've heard regarding that, and even utilized both of the guesses given by the characters in Trials and Tribble-ations. One of the few good examples.

Sussman and Strong remembered the scratch from the pilot in "Dead Stop"

It was a good example of internal continuity, but again, one of the few. A good example of bad internal continuity is Archer's father and when exactly he died, and what he died from.

they used First Contact brilliantly to bring the Borg into the 22nd century

I wouldn't say "brilliantly" myself. It worked to get into it, but once they were there it didn't really work. Aside from the cop-out of not announcing their name, they also really weakened the Borg so they could be defeated by 22nd century technology and medicine.

the Xindi arc was for the most part without too many flaws

I'd have to disagree there. They started off with one huge flaw by having the Xindi probe atttack Earth. It was pointelss as a test of that weapon and warned Earth of an impending attack, which is something no one should ever give one of their targets. Just think if the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor by sending one minisub or one torpedo bomber. Yeah, they might've gained surprise there, but in the grand scheme of things, they wouldn't have done much damage, and when they got around to sending the rest of their attack force, the hornet's nest would have already been stirred up.

and relied heavily on what came before in numerous ways

Such as?

season four pretty much drew upon TOS/TNG/DS9.

Which was better in some ways, yet worse in others. The stories themselves suffered somewhat, and a lot of the characters seemed to take several steps backwards development-wise.

 

[Anna Yolei]

Therin of Andor said:

DeafPoet said:
Another big gripe I see is that Archer was an idiot, and several variations on the theme. I thought he was suitably inexperienced and got better as time went on.

Number6 sums it up quite nicely.

And yes, I'm puzzled why there is so much fan venom towards both Janeway and Archer. Isn't it more interesting to see a captain who does make mistakes, ignores advice, agonizes over some of the decisions and just glosses over others?

Some of the venom towards Archer, I conceed, is very over the top. Having a sex dream about a co-worker and making a stupid slip-up after a hard day is hardly akin to sexual harassment, unlike what some folks would have you believe. Embarrassingly stupid juvenile writing, but it's pretty clear Archer's not running around lusting after T'Pol.

Aside from that, it wasn't Archer making mistakes that bugged me. It was ignoring advice because of whose mouth it came from. And I could understand this if T'Pol had been forced to stay on the Enterprise after her initial eight-day stay, but he was the one that asked her to stay! This is one of the plot holes that Captain X was talking about. Why in the hell would you ask someone to stay if your pride will get in the way of taking their advice, which Archer even admitted would come in handy when he asked her to stay?

Archer was inconsistently written, but I think that got remedied a bit in seasons three and four. Too bad the damage was done for most fans by then.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Captain X said:
That actually isn't a very good example. I think the Brannon Braga termed "continuity porn" fits that better than anything.

I disagree. Continuity porn is just namedropping just for the sake of it. This, on the otherhand, is appropriate for the story. They would very likely think that a warp expert like Cochrane and who mysteriously vanished might very well be the pilot.

Rather like having the humans settle on Ceti Alpha V in Twilight.

Again I found this to be a nice bit of tragic irony contingent upon viewer's knowledge of the planet's troubled history. You give it a random never heard of name and the punch itsn't as great knowing that they were doomed whether the Xindi found them or not.

they used First Contact brilliantly to bring the Borg into the 22nd century

I wouldn't say "brilliantly" myself. It worked to get into it, but once they were there it didn't really work. Aside from the cop-out of not announcing their name, they also really weakened the Borg so they could be defeated by 22nd century technology and medicine.

In a way that is true. The crew were able to get off far more shots than they should have before the Borg adapted. But the effort was there in other ways such as leveling the playing field by forcing the Borg to have to assimilate a 22nd century Arctic transport. But overall despite flaws I was able to enjoy it.

They started off with one huge flaw by having the Xindi probe atttack Earth. It was pointelss as a test of that weapon and warned Earth of an impending attack, which is something no one should ever give one of their targets.

The Sphere Builders probably weren't aware of FG so they assumed that Earth would have no way to track the Xindi down. Afterall, Archer nor anyone else would have considered the attack to have come from a species they never encountered or that they were in a region of space they never explored.

The likely candidates were any of the races Archer had pissed off in the first two years--the Klingons, the Silent Enemy aliens, the Tandarans, the mysterious Romulans etc etc. A point I expected Soval to bring up especially given similiar concerns about Archer in the first two seasons.

and relied heavily on what came before in numerous ways

Such as?

Virtually the whole season. Elements that would play a role all season were sprinkled into various episodes and were built upon as the season progressed-

1)trellium would play a pivotal role was introduced in the season three premiere was then revealed in episode two as being able to shield starships from anomalies then in episode five we learned it was harmful to Vulcans which allowed for the danger to the ship to continue since Archer couldn't jeopardize T'Pol who unknowingly became addicted to it. Also it seems from the moment in the future in Azati Prime that future Federation ships were lined with it since they were seen engaging the Sphere Builders inside the vast disturbance.

2)the Expanse's secret was gradually revealed by learning of a single sphere that led to the discovery a vast network that T'Pol studied in order to better chart and avoid the anomalies. The early exploration of the spheres allowed for the crew to find an entrance into one of them as well as bring down the network dissipating the Expanse explaining why we never heard of it in later series. In addition, the eliminiation of the Expanse in the 22nd century in this altered timeline erased the events we saw in the 26th century in "Azati Prime" freeing any future series in that era to not be hamstrung by such details as the design of the ENT-J or the fact the Klingons were a part of the Federation.

3)The mystery of the Xindi developed smoothly and logically. I could definitely see a race comprised of six different species struggling for domination and in that process destroying their own homeworld. So they go their own way until the Sphere Builders came along and it was they who proposed the council.

Towards the end of the season we got the final pieces of the puzzle where the Xindi’s actions of trying to destroy Earth were given plausibility based on everything we had seen before as we learn that the Sphere Builders didn’t just appear out of the blue one day telling the Xindi to annihilate humanity. The Guardians earned their trust for over a century by guiding them to habitable worlds and helping them locate resources as well as being the ones who brought forth the idea of reconciliation before finally providing visual evidence of humanity destroying their new homeworld. Lots of people complained that the Xindi wouldn’t commit genocide or that they were dupes. I think the writers did a good job disputing that by providing a very carefully laid out plan and under those circumstances the Xindi really were doing what they thought was the right thing given what they had to go on.

4)The writers remembered the Reptilians used biological components as we saw in their weapons captured in "Rajiin" and studied in "The Shipment" as well as in their interrogation techniques involving the neural parasites. They also remembered that the Xindi in Twilight had ships escorting the weapon and in Azati Prime Dolum asks Deegra about them and having a large enough vortex. The vortex that the probe exited in "The Expanse" was the same method travel we saw in "Rajiin", "Twilight", "The Council", "Countdown and "Zero Hour".

5)The characters used evidence from the Xindi probe in their investigations--the match between the probe's alloys and those found in the destroyed planet in the premiere, the markings tied the database in Anomaly, the kemocite signature was matched to Gralik's mining colony, the future technology in the probe that was quantum dated to the 26th century in "The Expanse" coincides with the invasion by the Sphere Builders in the 26th century.

The Sphere Builders requiring a proxy was explained by the fact that they couldn't exist in our universe.

Phlox remembered the data he obtained in Harbinger to develop a compound to stave off the effects of the transdimensional realm long enough to bring down the network in Zero Hour. The writers got right the fact that the Federation was founded in 2161.

 

[Nebusj]

DeafPoet said:
Another big gripe I see is that Archer was an idiot, and several variations on the theme. I thought he was suitably inexperienced and got better as time went on. Different strokes.

There's ``inexperienced'' and there's ``to dumb to know to check the weather before going camping''.

Granted some of the Enterprise-bashing was because of built-up frustration at Rick Berman and general dissatisfaction with Voyager, Deep Space Nine, and Insurrection (heck, all Trek since 1994). That could have been mollified somewhat with better fan relations. But most of the bashing comes down to nothing happening the first two years, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to hold against a show.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Captain X said:

Nerys Myk said:
The point is we've seen Vulcans without the "classic" look before. So its not unique. I dont recall a torrent of complaints after STII was released. Even Vulcan eye brows might show a little IDIC.

I'd expect as much variety among them as among humans, but not that much. Might as well lose the ears while you're at it.

Like Caitlin Dar?

By "unthought of" I was refering to certian creative directions that did not follow the usual fan expectations. Whicn tend to follow the fanon ingrained by years misremembered or totally made up factoids passed from fan to fan.

Such as? Sounds as much an opinion as anything else I've posted here.

Making the Vulcans more advesarial and not compleatly trusted by Archer.

I assume you are refering to certian design elements used, because the ship is pretty primative when compared to the 1707 or the 1701-D.

Not really. It looks too much like an Akira class with reversed pylons and TOS nacelles. I'll admit that the design has grown on me, but it's still an Akira class with a little tweaking here and there.

Before Enterprise I probably had no recollection of what the Akira class looked like. Thats was more than likely true of most viewers. So I cant get worked up by it. Inside and from a tech stand point its not as advanced as "future" ships.

There were quite a few TOS "easter eggs" in the design.

You mean the TOS style nacelles and the dome on the bottom? That'd be about it, at least on the exterior.

The sensor/deflector dish was derived from TOS as well.

Who to say what a ship woulsd look like 100 years prior to TOS any way?

Anyone who's seen what the Akira class of the late 24th Century looks like, which is more a matter of what it shouldn't have looked like.

Why? Its cool design, why not use it?

May the ship designers in the TNG era went retro and not futuristic.

I've heard that one before, but the Constellation of today bears very little resemblance to the one sailing the oceans 200 years ago, nor does the F-22 look much like the fighters of WWI less than 100 years ago.

Starship designs seems to be different. The twin hulls/twin engine design seen to dominate the fleet. Witn the single hull/twin engine design used for smaller ships.

Of course both the NX-01 and the Akira are based on an old 20th Century airplane design anyway.

The twin hulls bear a little resemblance to the P-38's twin tails because of the objects on top of them, which resemble the WWII fighter's superchargers, but that is the only resemblance. The similarities between the Akira and the NX-01 are far more numerous.

Didn't say they weren't, but both designs are inspired by the P-38 yes?

Too soon by who's reckoning? Picard says "centuries", as in more than one. Which fits with it happening 200 years before TNG. That other "date", allegedly from "Day of the Dove", is a myth. As distasters go it might have looked small when it happened, but it did set the course for human/Federation relationships with the Klingons for decades to come. One incident after another making a bad situation worse. So in retrospect it would be deemed a disaster.

Not really. In its TNG context, it made a very strong case for the existence of the Prime Directive in one of the few episodes where it actually made sense. It involved simply charging in and revealing themselves to less developed aliens. What about that situation bears any resemblance to what happened in Broken Bow.

But it wasn't "too soon" right?.

Archer's mistakes with the Klingons: not truely understanding their culture and refusing to take the advise of those who did,would seem to be a good argument for the Prime directive. And who's to say the lesson learned wasn't from an Klingon blundering around on the homeworld of the less advanced Humans? Dude wound up getting shot!

You might not like how they skirted the name issue, but it worked to perserve continuity.

Through the cop-out of not mentioning the names.

Yet it works with what was/is known about Ferengi culture. The scene where Archer ask's the Ferengi who they are is one of my favorites. In their first appearence the Borg do not utter the famous "We are the Borg" line IIRC.

TOS got its props in ENT.

In Season 4, but that was about it, and S4 hasn't aged all that well either.

They were more subtle than in Season 4. The second episode "Fight or Flight" uses the Axanar from TOS.

And making the show more like TOS would not make it a better prequel.

It wouldn't have had to be made like TOS, it just should've acknowledged its existence better and fit into what had been established as its history, or at least reconciled it as best as could be done. And before you say that it did, we'll just have to disagree on that point.

You're right I think they did. I've yet to encounter any compelling evidence to prove otherwise.

 

[Captain X]

startrekwatcher said:
I disagree. Continuity porn is just namedropping just for the sake of it. This, on the otherhand, is appropriate for the story. They would very likely think that a warp expert like Cochrane and who mysteriously vanished might very well be the pilot.

I guess this and the other example I gave seemed like pointless name dropping to me.

In a way that is true. The crew were able to get off far more shots than they should have before the Borg adapted. But the effort was there in other ways such as leveling the playing field by forcing the Borg to have to assimilate a 22nd century Arctic transport. But overall despite flaws I was able to enjoy it.

Good for you, but the Borg were already thoroughly ruined for me by VOY and this just continued the weakening of the Borg along the same lines.

The Sphere Builders probably weren't aware of FG so they assumed that Earth would have no way to track the Xindi down. Afterall, Archer nor anyone else would have considered the attack to have come from a species they never encountered or that they were in a region of space they never explored.

Even if they didn't know who, they still had the opportunity to build up their defenses.

Virtually the whole season. Elements that would play a role all season were sprinkled into various episodes and were built upon as the season progressed-

Ah, you mean as an arc, I thought you were still talking about trying into the rest of the franchise. An extended story arc is more interesting, at least for me, than episodic stuff, which is why I think Season 3 is ENT's best, even if S4 ties into TOS better (perhaps going a bit overboard for that matter).

Nerys Myk said:
Like Caitlin Dar?

I'm afraid that neither I nor Memory Alpha knows who that is.

Making the Vulcans more advesarial and not compleatly trusted by Archer.

That isn't exactly an unthought-of direction. While ENT took it a bit farther, that actually fits with what was seen of the Vulcans in TOS and of Captain Solok from DS9. The thing that doesn't make any sense was the business with melding in Stigma.

Before Enterprise I probably had no recollection of what the Akira class looked like.

You would if you'd seen First Contact or episodes of DS9 during its last two seasons.

Thats was more than likely true of most viewers.

Not really. TPTB knew that it was a fan favorite so they thought they'd get more viewers if they based the design off of that.

So I cant get worked up by it. Inside and from a tech stand point its not as advanced as "future" ships.

Sure it is. Transporters, phasers, photon torpedoes, all the quint essentials for a 24th century starship.

The sensor/deflector dish was derived from TOS as well.

Yes, three whole things…

Why? Its cool design, why not use it?

Well gee, why wouldn't you use F-22s in a movie about the Battle of Britain? They sure look cool.

Starship designs seems to be different. The twin hulls/twin engine design seen to dominate the fleet. Witn the single hull/twin engine design used for smaller ships.

Only Defiant and the Miranda class. And the NX-01 if you don't count the catamaran-style hulls. Which doesn't really have anything to do with my dislike for the design. Actually, something like the Conestoga would have done nicely, or even something similar to the NX-01 that was on the show if they'd gone more in the direction of that design that would have been featured on the Starfleet Academy movie back in '91.

But it wasn't "too soon" right?.

Yes, at least as far as I remember, because I'm pretty sure Picard said that the first contact occurred between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, which would place it after 2161.

Archer's mistakes with the Klingons: not truely understanding their culture and refusing to take the advise of those who did,would seem to be a good argument for the Prime directive. And who's to say the lesson learned wasn't from an Klingon blundering around on the homeworld of the less advanced Humans? Dude wound up getting shot!

Still not the disaster Picard indicated, which seemed to be more along the lines of a Starfleet landing party just beaming down in the middle of a High Council meeting or something and introducing themselves. Something that would lead them to develop the whole "duck blind" strategy of checking a place out for a while, remaining out of sight.

Yet it works with what was/is known about Ferengi culture.

How so? The Ferengi don't seem to have any problem with identifying who they are. Even Quark does just that to the US Army in Little Green Men.

In their first appearance the Borg do not utter the famous "We are the Borg" line IIRC.

Or in BoBW, in point of fact. But they did all throughout VOY and in First Contact, which is where those Borg came from. And the Borg definitely wouldn't have any qualms about identifying themselves.

They were more subtle than in Season 4.

I'd agree to that. But then name-dropping isn't really what I'd consider to be all that important so much as how they use it.

You're right I think they did. I've yet to encounter any compelling evidence to prove otherwise.

And I doubt you ever will, since most people have their mind made up one way or another.

 

[Kalen Archer]

NX_01 Mark said:
I thought the "Root of all the ENT bashing/hating"

was Stewey

As Stewey isn't here to speak for himself, we would appreciate it if he wasn't referred to in this manner, or any other former poster for that matter.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Captain X said:
Ha! How is this... even close to this?

Same emphasis on the breasts, diagonals, tight fabric. Many complained that T'Pol's outfit was like nothing Vulcan we'd seen before.

 

[Jack Bauer]

What's so fucking advanced about the Akira design anyways?

 

[Captain X]

Therin of Andor said:
Same emphasis on the breasts, diagonals, tight fabric. Many complained that T'Pol's outfit was like nothing Vulcan we'd seen before.

It's not, even that dress has more to it. Like I said, that S2 TNG uniform was closer, but unlike T'Pol's, everyone else was wearing one too. None of the other Vulcans wore a "uniform" like the one T'Pol wore. A couple came close, but none of them had the same pattern or cut.

Jack Bauer said:
What's so fucking advanced about the Akira design anyways?

The same things that make the Sovereign, Prometheus, Saber, Steamrunner, Norway, and other ship classes from that era so advanced.

 

[DanTheGrey]

I really wanted to like the show when it started out. I thought that they were doing a reasonably good job with making the ship look like something between what we have and where they would be in TOS. Pockets on the uniform were a nice touch.

As the show started and went on through the first season, my enthusiasm waned. It just didn't feel right to me. There were some good moments, but the show just never caught with me. I didn't like Archer at all and over time it was just a bunch of little things that I didn't like that caused me to miss an episode here and there, and then missing episodes became the norm for me. It was like flat soft drink...it's there but missing some major elements of what should make me want to consume it.

I did get back to watching the show in season 4 and was very impressed with it and felt that it was closer to what would have kept me watching from the start.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The root of the bashing is that for the first two seasons, ENT was truly awful in the same way (and for the same reasons) VOY was awful. And like VOY, this meant that a very promising premise, and some decent actors, were being utterly wasted, which was a frakking crime.

S3 was an improvement simply because they were trying something new, tho not doing it very well. S4 was what ENT should have been from the start.

Sometimes the bashers are right, yknow.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Captain X said:
b]Nerys Myk said:[/b]
Like Caitlin Dar?

I'm afraid that neither I nor Memory Alpha knows who that is.

Romulan ambassador from STV. Looked 99.99999% human

Making the Vulcans more advesarial and not compleatly trusted by Archer.

That isn't exactly an unthought-of direction. While ENT took it a bit farther, that actually fits with what was seen of the Vulcans in TOS and of Captain Solok from DS9. The thing that doesn't make any sense was the business with melding in Stigma.

I dunno about that. In TOS Vulcans were in short supply. We saw only three or four beyond Spock They weren't adversarial towards humans Solok was just a egotistical jerk. Though most fan like to ignore the negative traits in Vulcans. By pushing these to the forefront ENT did go in unthought of directions.

Before Enterprise I probably had no recollection of what the Akira class looked like.

You would if you'd seen First Contact or episodes of DS9 during its last two seasons.

Trek fan since 1966. Major DS9 fan, I've seen them, just don't commit every ship seen in a fleet shot to memory. Not an aspect of Trek that I dwell on too much.

Thats was more than likely true of most viewers.

Not really. TPTB knew that it was a fan favorite so they thought they'd get more viewers if they based the design off of that.

Viewers not fans. Not the same thing. I doubt the TBTB had any clue that the Akira was a "fan fave". I sure wasn't a fave with this fan or any fans I know.

So I cant get worked up by it. Inside and from a tech stand point its not as advanced as "future" ships.

Sure it is. Transporters, phasers, photon torpedoes, all the quint essentials for a 24th century starship.

And a 23rd Century starship. And things associated with Star Trek in general. And in the 22nd Century those things are less sophisticated than those of the 23rd and 24th. Just as the weapons used on a US Naval vessel from the 20th Century are less sophisticated than those of a 21st Centurty US naval vessel, even though they might be called the same names.

The sensor/deflector dish was derived from TOS as well.

Yes, three whole things…

How many is too much and how many is too little. The point is they exist.

Why? Its cool design, why not use it?

Well gee, why wouldn't you use F-22s in a movie about the Battle of Britain? They sure look cool.

Because there is a difference between fact and fiction.

Starship designs seems to be different. The twin hulls/twin engine design seen to dominate the fleet. Witn the single hull/twin engine design used for smaller ships.

Only Defiant and the Miranda class. And the NX-01 if you don't count the catamaran-style hulls. Which doesn't really have anything to do with my dislike for the design. Actually, something like the Conestoga would have done nicely, or even something similar to the NX-01 that was on the show if they'd gone more in the direction of that design that would have been featured on the Starfleet Academy movie back in '91.

Lets not forget the Oberth and the Constellation. The point is Starfeet designers like that basic configuration. So there is a design lineage. Not a fan of the Conestoga.

But it wasn't "too soon" right?.

Yes, at least as far as I remember, because I'm pretty sure Picard said that the first contact occurred between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, which would place it after 2161.

Did he? I dont recall.

Archer's mistakes with the Klingons: not truely understanding their culture and refusing to take the advise of those who did,would seem to be a good argument for the Prime directive. And who's to say the lesson learned wasn't from an Klingon blundering around on the homeworld of the less advanced Humans? Dude wound up getting shot!

Still not the disaster Picard indicated, which seemed to be more along the lines of a Starfleet landing party just beaming down in the middle of a High Council meeting or something and introducing themselves. Something that would lead them to develop the whole "duck blind" strategy of checking a place out for a while, remaining out of sight.

You're assuming it was an exact parallel. The Klingons have alway been shown as being on par with the Feds inb terms of technology. I I canlt imagine using a duckblind with them. The first encounter would be more likely in space or on a planet claimed by both.

Yet it works with what was/is known about Ferengi culture.

How so? The Ferengi don't seem to have any problem with identifying who they are. Even Quark does just that to the US Army in Little Green Men.

In the very first appearance of the Ferengi on TNG, the Last Outpost, the Ferengi refuse contact with the Enterprise. Picard describes them as mysterious. So I think we can assume they like to keep things on the down low. The Ferengi ship that disabled the Stargazer is another example of Ferengi not identifying themselves.

In their first appearance the Borg do not utter the famous "We are the Borg" line IIRC.

Or in BoBW, in point of fact. But they did all throughout VOY and in First Contact, which is where those Borg came from. And the Borg definitely wouldn't have any qualms about identifying themselves.

Six of one and half a dozen of the other. In other words it could go either way.

They were more subtle than in Season 4.

I'd agree to that. But then name-dropping isn't really what I'd consider to be all that important so much as how they use it.

The Axanar was more than a name drop. We actual saw them and learned about their culture. Though frankly name dropping is what I prefer. Seems less pandering that way. A gentle nod rather than a something more in the face

You're right I think they did. I've yet to encounter any compelling evidence to prove otherwise.

And I doubt you ever will, since most people have their mind made up one way or another.

So true. But I am open to changing my mind if a compelling enough arguent is made and the evidence hold up to examination.

Captain X said:

Jack Bauer said:
What's so fucking advanced about the Akira design anyways?

The same things that make the Sovereign, Prometheus, Saber, Steamrunner, Norway, and other ship classes from that era so advanced.

Which is what? Gotta be more to it than appearing in a 24th Century based show.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

For me, the stories just weren't interesting, nor were the characters (particularly the captain--a fatal flaw for a Trek series). Only after that did the cavalier attitude of Bermaga toward TOS and the Akiraprise and the other minutiae ('coz that's all it was) began to bug me.

Had the stories and characters been there, I would have tolerated a great deal. So I tuned out.

(Please note this post is intended simply to answer the question, not to bash or troll. YMMV, as always.)

 

[Captain X]

Nerys Myk said:
Romulan ambassador from STV. Looked 99.99999% human

O RLY?

Can't see her ears, but the jewelry suggests pointed ears, and her eyebrows are definitely Vulcan/Romulan.

I dunno about that. In TOS Vulcans were in short supply. We saw only one beyond Spock and that was Sarek. He wasn't advesararial.

Watch Amok Time again.

Solok was just a egotistical jerk.

He was also quite bigoted.

Though most fan like to ignore the negative traits in Vulcans. By pushing these to the forefront ENT did go in unthought of directions.

Again, it wasn't really unthought-of, it fit with Vulcans we'd seen before.

Trek fan since 1966. Major DS9 fan, I've seen them, just don't commit every ship seen in a fleet shot to memory. Not an aspect of Trek that I dwell on too much.

They're hard to miss.

Viewers not fans. Not the same thing. I doubt the TBTB had any clue that the Akira was a "fan fave". I sure wasn't a fave with this fan or any fans I know.

Yes, they knew it was a fan favorite, that's specifically why they instructed the illustrator who designed the NX-01 to base it off of the Akira. John Eaves and Rick Berman stated that the NX-01 was designed consciously with the Akira in mind.

And a 23rd Century starship. And things associated with Star Trek in general. And in the 22nd Century those things are less sophisticated than those of the 23rd and 24th. Just as the weapons used on a US Naval vessel from the 20th Century are less sophisticated than those of a 21st Centurty US naval vessel, even though they might be called the same names.

They don't just have very similar names, they do all the exact same things. If the point was to make a prequel, the only place they really bothered to do it was with the grpplers instead of a tractor beam.

How many is too much and how many is too little. The point is they exist.

No, the point is that it's entire design closely resembles the Akira in a way that no other starship does, even with the TOS style add-ons.

Because there is a difference between fact and fiction.

So? That doesn't make it any more appropriate to use a TNG era design as the basis of a pre-TOS design for a prequel than it would be to use an F-22 in a WWII epic.

Lets not forget the Oberth and the Constellation.

Oberth isn't single-hulled, it's double-hulled, it just lacks the typical "neck" between the soucer and the engineering hull.

The point is Starfeet designers like that basic configuration.

Yeah, but they aren't 80% or better like each other, either. And even with the ones like the Conny/Miranda, they come from the same era, not 200 years apart.

Not a fan of the Conestoga.

I am. I think it looks pretty neat myself.

Did he? I dont recall.

I guess not, here's the exact quote:

Chancellor, no starship mission is more dangerous than first contact. We never know what we face when we open the door to a new world. How will we be greeted? What are the dangers? Centuries ago, a disastrous first contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war. It was decided then that we must do surveillance before making contact. It was a controversial decision. But I believe it prevents more problems than it creates.

Did the incident in Broken Bow lead to decades of war? Did anything about it suggest that conducting surveillance would have made it better?

You're assuming it was an exact parallel.

Why else would he use them as an example if there wasn't at least some similarity?

The Klingons have alway been shown as being on par with the Feds inb terms of technology. I I canlt imagine using a duckblind with them. The first encounter would be more likely in space or on a planet claimed by both.

Who's to say that the Klingons didn't steal this technology the same way Terrans were shown to have done in IaMD? After all, they both use photon torpedoes, and disruptors could have been an attempt at copying phasers that they ended up sticking with even after they got a better handle on the technology.

In the very first appearance of the Ferengi on TNG, the Last Outpost, the Ferengi refuse contact with the Enterprise. Picard describes them as mysterious. So I think we can assume they like to keep things on the down low.

Their name was still known, and once they'd actually seen them, it really wasn't an issue. Those Ferengi were also a lot different from the DS9 comic relief versions we saw on ENT.

Six of one and half a dozen of the other. In other words it could go either way.

Not really. If these were the same Borg we saw in First Contact, as we were lead to believe, then they would've identified themselves right before they announced their attention to assimilate everyone. And again I'll remind you of how they were weakened so it was possible for the ENT crew to succeed where the TNG crew always had a hard time of it, even with a much more powerful and advanced starship. The Borg simply had no place on ENT and should have been left well enough alone.

I was half expecting Q to show up at some point.

The Axanar was more than a name drop. We actual saw them and learned about their culture.

Not much of it, and we never saw them again. They were barely even mentioned in TOS to begin with. They did a much better job with the Andorians.

Though frankly name dropping is what I prefer. Seems less pandering that way. A gentle nod rather than a something more in the face

I prefer something that actually does something and would actually do something to set up what its premise said it would.

But I am open to changing my mind if a compelling enough arguent is made and the evidence hold up to examination.

I'm very doubtful of that.

I really have no problem that you have no problem with ENT. That's fine. But I'm still going to point things out that I consider faults.

Which is what? Gotta be more to it than appearing in a 24th Century based show.

They share a close design lineage, and it's easy to imagine them coming from a particular decade since they all share the same kind of angular yet streamlined themes, which differentiates them from earlier ships, like the Galaxy and the Nebula, and other such ships from the 24th century. But appearing when they did is enough simply because it establishes when they existed.

 

[Jack Bauer]

About the transporters it should be noted that it was something the studio insisted on. Originally B&B had decided not to have transporters on the show. Paramount insisted it wouldn't be Star Trek without them.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Captain X said:

Nerys Myk said:
Romulan ambassador from STV. Looked 99.99999% human

O RLY?

Can't see her ears, but the jewelry suggests pointed ears, and her eyebrows are definitely Vulcan/Romulan.

All I see is an Asian woman who wouldn't look out of place in Chinese historical epic. The eyebrows aren't arched enough to be a classic Vulcanoid. I see woman with their eyebrows plucked to that shape almost every day. Dar was the Worst. Vulcanoid. Ever.

I dunno about that. In TOS Vulcans were in short supply. We saw only one beyond Spock and that was Sarek. He wasn't advesararial.

Watch Amok Time again.

Read my edit.

Solok was just a egotistical jerk.

He was also quite bigoted.

Or just full of himself.

Though most fan like to ignore the negative traits in Vulcans. By pushing these to the forefront ENT did go in unthought of directions.

Again, it wasn't really unthought-of, it fit with Vulcans we'd seen before.

Yes but most fan objections stemmed from the idea they didn't. My point is they amped it up and made it a major element of the series. The fanboys didn't think of that.

Trek fan since 1966. Major DS9 fan, I've seen them, just don't commit every ship seen in a fleet shot to memory. Not an aspect of Trek that I dwell on too much.

They're hard to miss.

If you say so. Me I could not care less what they looked like or what they were called.

Viewers not fans. Not the same thing. I doubt the TBTB had any clue that the Akira was a "fan fave". I sure wasn't a fave with this fan or any fans I know.

Yes, they knew it was a fan favorite, that's specifically why they instructed the illustrator who designed the NX-01 to base it off of the Akira. John Eaves and Rick Berman stated that the NX-01 was designed consciously with the Akira in mind.

Which means they like the look of the ship. Do they actually claim it was because they knew it was a fan fave?

And a 23rd Century starship. And things associated with Star Trek in general. And in the 22nd Century those things are less sophisticated than those of the 23rd and 24th. Just as the weapons used on a US Naval vessel from the 20th Century are less sophisticated than those of a 21st Centurty US naval vessel, even though they might be called the same names.

They don't just have very similar names, they do all the exact same things. If the point was to make a prequel, the only place they really bothered to do it was with the grpplers instead of a tractor beam.

And real life naval ships have been using torpedoes and guns for centuries and haven't bothered to change the names as the technology used for them changes. Thre whole " we must make up new names and totaly different tech or it isnt a true prequel" makes little sense. How long have humans been using gunpowder based projectile weapons? How long have we called them "guns" amd "pistols"> Single shot, six shooter and automatic all are guns and pistols. Same with treks energy weapons. Laser, phase Pistol, Phaser. All do the same thing and are just variations on a single tech. So ifd its good enough for reality why not trek?

They also had hullplating instead of shields..

The point is they exist.

No, the point is that it's entire design closely resembles the Akira in a way that no other starship does, even with the TOS style add-ons.

Thats not my point.

Because there is a difference between fact and fiction.

So? That doesn't make it any more appropriate to use a TNG era design as the basis of a pre-TOS design for a prequel than it would be to use an F-22 in a WWII epic.

SUre it does. The F-22 is real with a real history. WWII is an actual event. The Akira and Star Trek are fiction. Fiction is more fluid than history.

Lets not forget the Oberth and the Constellation.

Oberth isn't single-hulled, it's double-hulled, it just lacks the typical "neck" between the soucer and the engineering hull.

Never got an engineering vibe from that thing onder the Oberths saucer. But I will conceed that its the engineering section. I figured they stored giant skis in there.

Did he? I dont recall.

I guess not, here's the exact quote:

Chancellor, no starship mission is more dangerous than first contact. We never know what we face when we open the door to a new world. How will we be greeted? What are the dangers? Centuries ago, a disastrous first contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war. It was decided then that we must do surveillance before making contact. It was a controversial decision. But I believe it prevents more problems than it creates.

Did the incident in Broken Bow lead to decades of war? Did anything about it suggest that conducting surveillance would have made it better?

Yes. The dominoes started to fall. Browken Bow. Judgement. Augements. The founding of the UFP. I guess the decades of war must be between 2161 and "Errand of Mercy". Followed by the Cold War that ended around STVI. Seems to me that proper intel about the Klingons and their culture could have made things a bit easier.

You're assuming it was an exact parallel.

Why else would he use them as an example if there wasn't at least some similarity?

The similarity lies in it be disaterous and showing the need to gather information before hand.

The Klingons have alway been shown as being on par with the Feds inb terms of technology. I I canlt imagine using a duckblind with them. The first encounter would be more likely in space or on a planet claimed by both.

Who's to say that the Klingons didn't steal this technology the same way Terrans were shown to have done in IaMD? After all, they both use photon torpedoes, and disruptors could have been an attempt at copying phasers that they ended up sticking with even after they got a better handle on the technology.

The conjecture is they stole it from the Hurq, long befor humans got into space.

In the very first appearance of the Ferengi on TNG, the Last Outpost, the Ferengi refuse contact with the Enterprise. Picard describes them as mysterious. So I think we can assume they like to keep things on the down low.

Their name was still known, and once they'd actually seen them, it really wasn't an issue. Those Ferengi were also a lot different from the DS9 comic relief versions we saw on ENT

Not much they could do about that afterwards, but prior to "The Last Outpost" they played their cards close to the vest as shown in "Last Outpost", "Mauraders" and "The Battle" They were stil Ferengi, comic relief or not. And it fit the pattern of their culture.

Six of one and half a dozen of the other. In other words it could go either way.

Not really. If these were the same Borg we saw in First Contact, as we were lead to believe, then they would've identified themselves right before they announced their attention to assimilate everyone. And again I'll remind you of how they were weakened so it was possible for the ENT crew to succeed where the TNG crew always had a hard time of it, even with a much more powerful and advanced starship. The Borg simply had no place on ENT and should have been left well enough alone.

I was half expecting Q to show up at some point.

They were as you say weakend borg,. Not quite up to stuff. So they used the older "program". We've seen the Borg use both "programs" so again it could go either way. Why does it have to be Borg 2.0?

The Axanar was more than a name drop. We actual saw them and learned about their culture.

Not much of it, and we never saw them again. They were barely even mentioned in TOS to begin with. They did a much better job with the Andorians.

How many TOS aliens did we see again?

Though frankly name dropping is what I prefer. Seems less pandering that way. A gentle nod rather than a something more in the face

I prefer something that actually does something and would actually do something to set up what its premise said it would.

The premise is it happend before TOS. I'm not all to interested in a bunch "set up" stuff to get TOS fans off with fangasms of ecstasy. Which is why Season 4 is not my favorite.

But I am open to changing my mind if a compelling enough arguent is made and the evidence hold up to examination.

I'm very doubtful of that.

Trust me.

I really have no problem that you have no problem with ENT. That's fine. But I'm still going to point things out that I consider faults.

Do it. More power to ya! And I hope you don't mind if I show why they're wrong.

Which is what? Gotta be more to it than appearing in a 24th Century based show.

They share a close design lineage, and it's easy to imagine them coming from a particular decade since they all share the same kind of angular yet streamlined themes, which differentiates them from earlier ships, like the Galaxy and the Nebula, and other such ships from the 24th century. But appearing when they did is enough simply because it establishes when they existed.

A fair point.

 

[Broccoli]

As for Klingons having warp capabilities before humans, blame DS9 for that, as they established that they were exposed to it 1000 years before humans and there were references of Klingons being space worthy much earlier than humans (such as taking on the Breen in the 16th Century).

 

[pookha]

how many tos aliens were seen again..
very damn few considering how much it took to develop the make up. and even then they were more side fill in the space characters ie we didnt learn a new thing about them.
you see this in whom gods destroy with the andorians and tellarites.

yeah you see klingons and romulans again but we never see the horta, trelyane, balok or any of his people, and on ever again.

even though the peace treaty shaped some of tos you never see the organians again nor find out why the peace treaty went away.

probably the biggest disconnect between the show and the movies.

 

[Captain X]

Nerys Myk said:

All I see is an Asian woman who wouldn't look out of place in Chinese historical epic. The eyebrows aren't arched enough to be a classic Vulcanoid. I see woman with their eyebrows plucked to that shape almost every day.

Still better than what T'Pol had to begin with, or the double brows that kept showing up in S3. At least here you can see there was some effort put into it by how her eyeliner is, which follows the regular contour of her brow (for whatever reason). She was also a minor character compared to T'Pol, who was very front and center.

Or just full of himself.

Nah, bigoted. He kept on about how superior Vulcans were because they didn't let emotion cloud their judgment and that old song and dance. He also captained a ship that had a purely Vulcan crew.

Yes but most fan objections stemmed from the idea they didn't. My point is they amped it up and made it a major element of the series. The fanboys didn't think of that.

Ah, I see what you’re saying now. I guess that just means I'm not as big of a fanboy as others because I remember those other Vulcans. My only real bitch point is over the melding stigma.

If you say so. Me I could not care less what they looked like or what they were called.

There're a few visual aids here.

Which means they like the look of the ship. Do they actually claim it was because they knew it was a fan fave?

Yes. Initially they denied everything, but eventually they came out and admitted it in an interview around the end of S1, IIRC.

And real life naval ships have been using torpedoes and guns for centuries and haven't bothered to change the names as the technology used for them changes. Thre whole " we must make up new names and totaly different tech or it isnt a true prequel" makes little sense. How long have humans been using gunpowder based projectile weapons? How long have we called them "guns" amd "pistols"> Single shot, six shooter and automatic all are guns and pistols. Same with treks energy weapons. Laser, phase Pistol, Phaser. All do the same thing and are just variations on a single tech. So ifd its good enough for reality why not trek?

So why not call them cannons and torpedoes (or missiles) instead of making really weak attempts at changing the names a little? Why not do something different since they said they were going to? The irony is that in the first half of Broken Bow they actually had a perfectly good weapon they could've used for the small arms, but then they ruined it and replaced them by the second half with the "phase pistols".

They also had hullplating instead of shields..

Which operated exactly the same way as shields, right down to failing by percentages.

[ Thats not my point.

No, but it's still very valid.

SUre it does. The F-22 is real with a real history. WWII is an actual event. The Akira and Star Trek are fiction. Fiction is more fluid than history.

Just because something is fictional, or even sci fi for that matter, doesn't mean that it can't take itself seriously enough to distinguish between time periods.

Yes. The dominoes started to fall. Browken Bow. Judgement. Augements. The founding of the UFP. I guess the decades of war must be between 2161 and "Errand of Mercy". Followed by the Cold War that ended around STVI. Seems to me that proper intel about the Klingons and their culture could have made things a bit easier.

That isn't the way Picard made it sound though. From what he said, it sounded like they just kind of beamed down and said "hi" or did something else stupid that resulted in a war, but definitely something they did that upon hindsight they could have done differently.

They didn't need the Klingons anyway, they had the Orions.

The similarity lies in it be disaterous and showing the need to gather information before hand.

How would they have done any of that in Broken Bow when it was a Klingon that crashed on Earth after being chased by Suliban?

The conjecture is they stole it from the Hurq, long befor humans got into space.

Fiction. Fluid. Prequel. But really just more reason why they shouldn't have even bothered with Klingons.

Not much they could do about that afterwards, but prior to "The Last Outpost" they played their cards close to the vest as shown in "Last Outpost", "Mauraders" and "The Battle" They were stil Ferengi, comic relief or not. And it fit the pattern of their culture.

Not really. If they were really going to do that, they'd have made them more like the early TNG Ferengi instead of like the DS9 Ferengi. Prequel and all. But since DS9 kind of frakked that up too, that's just that much more reason to leave that species in the 24th century.

They were as you say weakend borg,. Not quite up to stuff. So they used the older "program". We've seen the Borg use both "programs" so again it could go either way. Why does it have to be Borg 2.0?

Because that's what they were in First Contact, and that was where they established these Borg came from.

How many TOS aliens did we see again?

Not many, but that isn't the point. The point is that they could have done more with those established aliens. Just as an example, the Tellarites could have used more attention, and the Orions rally could've been the main baddies if they really thought about it. The Andorians, Vulcans, and Romulans were treated well enough.

The premise is it happend before TOS. I'm not all to interested in a bunch "set up" stuff to get TOS fans off with fangasms of ecstasy. Which is why Season 4 is not my favorite.

The premise said that it would be a prequel, and that it would be different from the other series. We got VOY, seasons 8 & 9 instead before things really got changed up very much.

Do it. More power to ya! And I hope you don't mind if I show why they're wrong.

In your opinion. We obviously have differing concerns and very different tastes.

Would you believe that ENT is actually my second favorite series (mostly due to S3)?

A fair point.

Thank you.