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Root of all the ENT bashing/hating?

Captain X said:If people want to be mindlessly entertained, there are a lot of other franchises out there. The entire point of Trek is that it's supposed to have some actual thought put into it.
If given a choice, I'd rather the writers put "some actual thought" into things like characterization and plots instead of putting a bunch of energy into an aspect that most viewers won't give two shits about. That TPTb didn't follow a throwaway speech (One that I didn't even remember before you brought it up) or make the Enterprise NX-01 look too modern or that Kronos took longer to get to at Warp nine than warp three or four aren't the reason for why this show lost viewers in droves, and I know from your previous posts that it's not your primary reason why most people here (myself included) aren't overthrilled about season two.

That being said, it was a general stupid idea to focus so much on species that had gotten a pair amount of play in other series. Particularly the Borg, which Voyager had run into the ground with overuse.

In any case, why would the "general audience" care one way or another if the writers actually stuck to things they'd already established? So TPTB would be much better off to do so because the people who would notice would give them kudos for it instead of criticizing them for not doing even the least amount of research into their own franchise, and everyone else would just be entertained anyway.
Like I said, continuity errors, however big or small they are, weren't the big deal-breakers with most viewers, including those who were annoyed with the errors. The first thing out of most anti-Enterprise viewers as to why they gave up watching this show is usually in regards to the characters (usually Archer) or recycled plots and general lack of creativity. It doesn't mean jack shit if Kronos took months to get to at Warp three when the captain isn't very likable to most of the audience.
 
Enterprise only had to be better than Voyager. That's it.

I just wonder what Enterprise would have been like on Showtime? Y'Know with nudity, sex, ultraviolence and cursing...
 
^
Well, there'd be a lot of sex, probably to the extent it became detrimental to the plot (which it did anyway, despite the tighter censors).

It wouldn't be better, it wouldn't be worse, but it'd be more gratuituous and that's not my cup of tea. Not to belittle Showtime, of course, because I love Dexter, but just about none of that show's adult material feels forced or gratuituous... but I'm guessing that by "Showtime" Enterprise you'd mean a watered down Lexx, and personally I don't care for that show.

But if Enterprise had half the wit and craft that Dexter has, it'd be brilliant. :)
 
Captain X said:
It would still make it that much better.
Wouldn't have made a lick of difference to me. Trek was new to me when I got into Enterprise, and it wouldn't have made up for Archer coming across like a moron more often than not.
icon_shrug.gif
If that a didn't kill the show for me, nothing would.
 
The stories were dull and lifeless.

The characters were simplistic and wooden.

The color scheme was washed out and bland.

Everything moved very slooooooooooowly.

There was nothing exciting about the show.

Its premise was wasted, and the clumsy Temporal Cold War conflicted with the back-to-basics prequel concept.

And after specifically trying to get away from the 24th century trappings, they shoe-horned a bunch of them back in in really lame ways.

Plus, it was super boring.
 
Anna Yolei said:
Wouldn't have made a lick of difference to me. Trek was new to me when I got into Enterprise, and it wouldn't have made up for Archer coming across like a moron more often than not.
icon_shrug.gif
If that a didn't kill the show for me, nothing would.
Good for you.
 
Captain X said:
If people want to be mindlessly entertained, there are a lot of other franchises out there.
I've never said I or others who might have found ENT enjoyable from time to time are just interested in mindless entertainment but I certainly don't object to mindless entertainment if it is enjoyable.
The entire point of Trek is that it's supposed to have some actual thought put into it.
I don't think that is the entire point. It was conceived as entertainment and to make money for the studio. It did also present a more enlightened and hopeful future for audiences which has inspired many in numerous ways. Some were inspired to become scientists because of the sci-fi angle. Some enjoyed the weird aliens and space opera feel. The franchise did have its moments of thoughtfulness but I would argue just as many hours were for entertainment.
So TPTB would be much better off to do so because the people who would notice would give them kudos for it instead of criticizing them for not doing even the least amount of research into their own franchise, and everyone else would just be entertained anyway.
This all comes down to a matter of personal taste. Everyone is going to have a different threshold for what will meet their needs as a viewer of entertainment.

I would categorize myself somewhere in between a rabid fan obsessed with every bit of Trek minutae and a casual viewer. Speaking as such I think the main things I expect out of Trek or any show is to have fun or be entertained. I generally look for engaging characters, fairly original or interesting plots, some plot twists, nice character moments, good acting and consistency in episode quality week to week.

If the writers meet those needs I'm not going to complain. All I'm saying is that as a person attending school and other priorities I have very little in the way of free time. But when I do I like to treat myself to a few tv series. I'm certainly not going to let a minor slip-up or contradiction with canon overshadow the other good aspects of the episode or series itself.

If the writers remember those details and use them effectively in a creative manner then that is just a bonus. But I really can't be bothered to get upset or expect the writers to keep track of everything. I realize that for some fans this is important and more power to them that they have the time and inclination to analyze everything in meticulous detail and cross reference it with other equally passionate internet fans on a daily basis.

That isn't to say that really big and obvious foul-ups don't irritate me. But then again it is all a matter of perspective dependent on the individual. Afterall, what I would consider a minor detail others would argue was important. How do you delineate between relevant and irrelevant details the writers need to adhere to?

For me those are the ones that you can't help but notice such as the Romulan cloak or there being survivors from Wolf 359.
Thankfully ENT managed to improve greatly with the Xindi arc and season four.
Both of which had plot holes big enough to fly a Galaxy class starship through.
Examples?
 
The end of the TCW, the return of Koss and T'Pol's marriage despite what was established in Breaking the Ice and the fact that T'Pol has been made into a pariah among her people, the Archer brings enlightenment to the noble savages arc, how the Klingons were able to get a hold of Augment DNA when they were destroyed along with that BoP, how Columbia was able to catch up to Enterprise all the way from Earth, Trip's quick transfers, why the female characters didn't assume command of the ship when it became apparent that their male colleagues were being effected by the Orions, why Terra Prime created the very thing they feared most, then presented an infant to the world in a pathetic attempt to scare them, if the verteron array was there the whole time, where it was during Zero Hour, where the rest of Starfleet was for that matter, why Enterprise was sent by itself rather than with a task force, and plenty more.

This all comes down to a matter of personal taste. Everyone is going to have a different threshold for what will meet their needs as a viewer of entertainment.
And I have a feeling that no matter what I said, you wouldn't be convinced. BUt that's ok, because I'm just answering the original poster's question.
 
Turd Ferguson said:
So far I've liked what I've seen, but I've only seen mostly the second season. One complaint I have are the stories seem to revolve around the same premise. And that's either somebody getting taken hostage/taking somebody hostage/hostages taking even more hostages then a member of Enterprise gets taken hostage.

A little more variety would be nice.

for some odd reason there was way to much of it in the second season.
more then any others.

as for the picard first contact line..
considering they had problems with the klingons from the start maybe it does fit.
also consider the first real major contact that resulted in an incident that would probably make the general history books was the judgement incident which does fit the description.
 
DeafPoet said:
Another big gripe I see is that Archer was an idiot, and several variations on the theme. I thought he was suitably inexperienced and got better as time went on.

Number6 sums it up quite nicely.

And yes, I'm puzzled why there is so much fan venom towards both Janeway and Archer. Isn't it more interesting to see a captain who does make mistakes, ignores advice, agonizes over some of the decisions and just glosses over others?

I've had numerous bosses over the years that were often very well-meaning and competent people - but they still made mistakes, large and small, and sometimes managed to be contrary, biased, vengeful, rude, and/or apologetic. Sometimes they remained totally ignorant of some important issues, or had very minor incidents come back to bite them.

After "Insurrection", it became really trendy to scoff at all new Star Trek.

As for Picard's opinion on how history remembers Klingon First Contact, it fits with ENT perfectly. Archer took a Klingon back home, risking offending the Klingon's family's honour, blundered himself into a stint on Rura Penthe, and contributed to the Klingons' loss of their forehead bumps. Sounds like a disastrous First Contact if you ask me!
 
Captain X said:
The end of the TCW, the return of Koss and T'Pol's marriage despite what was established in Breaking the Ice
i wish they had addressed it because it could have been solved with something as simple that the parents of koss for their own reasons didnt tell koss the truth.

how the Klingons were able to get a hold of Augment DNA when they were destroyed along with that BoP,
you know if you are going to attack the show it helps to check what was said..

archer to soong
Whoever's responsible jettisoned the Klingon crew into space. DNA was recovered from the bodies
it was how they knew who they were dealing with.

how Columbia was able to catch up to Enterprise all the way from Earth,
you forget that they could still control the direction ect just not stop.
why not go in the direction of columbia is coming from.
it is so much common sense.


Trip's quick transfers,
because there were situations that made it possible.
and we dont know exactly how much time elapsed betweeen
aenar and affliction. but, starfleet had columbia that months behind schedule and when one of your best warp specialists offers to help, you dont look the gift horse in the mouth.
later enterprise was damaged, columbia was deep space worthy and archer had the greater pull among the captains.

,
why Terra Prime created the very thing they feared most, then presented an infant to the world in a pathetic attempt to scare them,
because crazed meglomanics often dont think like normal people.
they also made sure that elizabeth showed primary vulcan traits.
to their twisted thinking this would scare people into thinking that humanity would disappear as a species if they intermixed.
and well considering his illness and what he was taking for treatment paxton could have had his own twisted reasons.



[if the verteron array was there the whole time, where it was during Zero Hour
that section of mars was away from earth the weapon came out on the far side away from mars or both.

why Enterprise was sent by itself rather than with a task force, and plenty more.
because no other ship could have kept up with them.

was the show perfect far from it.
but it is interesting when people go after on stuff that is either directly addresed or a plausiable explanation is given in the story.
 
Captain X said:
why Terra Prime created the very thing they feared most, then presented an infant to the world in a pathetic attempt to scare them

That's one I found particularly odd. Terra Prime was obviously based on modern racism, or 'White Nationalism' - the countercultural adulation of an infamous historical mass murderer (Colonel Green for the TPers, Hitler for WNs) - their sole insistence on racial seperation into one's historic homelands, often claiming that this is better for those alien races as well as them, all given with a degree of media savvy and so on.

You can say a lot about these guys, but one thing they're not, and that's bad with PR. When faced with the general public they deliberately put their arguments in the best possible light and avoid being goaded into making obvious inflammatory statements. Example: David Duke is asked about the Holocaust. He says he believes it happened, but argues that there should be freedom of expression, and brings up the subject of imprisoned Holocaust deniers in Europe. They ignore as much as possible that's seen as negative with their ideology - i.e., virtually everything - and hit their opponent where they're most vulnerable. The TPers seem to have a lot of that.

And then they unveil and threaten a baby. A baby. They might as well shoot their PR guys in the head, that's the dumbest, crassest thing they could do.
 
Captain X said:
Who was the first Vulcan in a catsuit then?

As for the eyebrow problem, Saavik might've had it too, but that isn't an excuse either. The look had been long established by the time ENT started, and all the other Vulcans seen on ENT had them.

The point is we've seen Vulcans without the "classic" look before. So its not unique. I dont recall a torrent of complaints after STII was released. Even Vulcan eye brows might show a little IDIC.

Re: "Unthought of directions" - I have to disagree there. If anything ENT went where one or more of the series had gone before

By "unthought of" I was refering to certian creative directions that did not follow the usual fan expectations. Whicn tend to follow the fanon ingrained by years misremembered or totally made up factoids passed from fan to fan.

As for continuity, I'll again have to bitch about the ship being 200 years out of time, and an example of what I was afraid of as far as continuity going by the wayside.

I assume you are refering to certian design elements used, because the ship is pretty primative when compared to the 1707 or the 1701-D. There were quite a few TOS "easter eggs" in the design. Who to say what a ship woulsd look like 100 years prior to TOS any way? May the ship designers in the TNG era went retro and not futuristic. Of course both the NX-01 and the Akira are based on an old 20th Century airplane design anyway.

Storywise, a huge continuity error was the first contact with the Klingons being too soon, and hardly disasterous as described by Picard.

Too soon by who's reckoning? Picard says "centuries", as in more than one. Which fits with it happening 200 years before TNG. That other "date", allegedly from "Day of the Dove", is a myth. As distasters go it might have looked small when it happened, but it did set the course for human/Federation relationships with the Klingons for decades to come. One incident after another making a bad situation worse. So in retrospect it would be deemed a disaster.

Then, of course, there was the Ferengi and the Borg, both of which "preserved" continuity by merely copping by not mentioning their names. I've heard all the arguements for those episodes, but they fall short, and again don't excuse ignoring TOS in favor of TNG. And this is coming from someone who liked TNG a lot more than TOS. My point is, if you're going to do a prequel, do a prequel instead of trying to do TNG in the 22nd century, or as it turned out in some cases, Voyager mark II.

Both the Ferengi and Borg episodes were well handled. You might not like how they skirted the name issue, but it worked to perserve continuity. TOS got its props in ENT. And making the show more like TOS would not make it a better prequel. You'd still have nitpickers tearing it apart just because they can.
 
yeah back in the summer we had a list of the vulcans who didnt have the arched eyebrow.
sakonna is one and the admiral from conspiracy is another.

as for/.

If people want to be mindlessly entertained, there are a lot of other franchises out there. The entire point of Trek is that it's supposed to have some actual thought put into it. In any case, why would the "general audience" care one way or another if the writers actually stuck to things they'd already established? So TPTB would be much better off to do so because the people who would notice would give them kudos for it instead of criticizing them for not doing even the least amount of research into their own franchise, and everyone else would just be entertained anyway.

yes, it helps to keep a lot of the prior details in mind.
but look trek always has punted it aside to tell a story.
tos really did it alot.

i still find tos return to tomorrow fun despite the exchange between kirk and spock declaring beings that are energy and without form impossible.
of course this is direct contradiction to both errand of mercy and metamorphosis ...

i guess i am mindless since i often found enterprise entertaining despite its flaws.
:rommie:
 
Therin of Andor said:
Sakonna, DS9.
Ha!

How is this:
DS9_40_8.jpg


Even close to this?
archertpol01a2xs.jpg


Selar was closer in the S2 TNG uniforms, and at least then it was actually a uniform because everyone else was wearing them too.
 
pookha said:
i wish they had addressed it because it could have been solved with something as simple that the parents of koss for their own reasons didnt tell koss the truth.
Except that whole pariah thing.

you know if you are going to attack the show it helps to check what was said..
Who's attacking? Can't anyone have the least little criticism about the show without being accused of attacking it or bashing it? So I forgot one. It seems suspect to me, but then it is Trek science.

you forget that they could still control the direction ect just not stop.
why not go in the direction of columbia is coming from.
it is so much common sense.
But we still saw Columbia only just leaving Earth in Divergence. I don't know about you, but I was left with the impression that Enterprise was a long way from home and they didn't have very much time.


because there were situations that made it possible.
Not the way I saw it. It felt a lot more like a weak excuse to get some angst for a while until they could get Trip back on the ship.

because crazed meglomanics often dont think like normal people.
they also made sure that elizabeth showed primary vulcan traits.
to their twisted thinking this would scare people into thinking that humanity would disappear as a species if they intermixed.
and well considering his illness and what he was taking for treatment paxton could have had his own twisted reasons.
Like I said, it made no sense, they created the very thing they said they feared, and killing an infant would gain them no sympathy.

that section of mars was away from earth the weapon came out on the far side away from mars or both.
I've heard a lot of theories, but its still a plot hole, just like the lack of a fleet to defend Earth when they knew (or were supposed to) that there was going to be another attack.

because no other ship could have kept up with them.
Getting there quicker doesn't do much good if one doesn't have the firepower to do anything about it. Azati Prime underlined that point rather well. Besides, as long as Enterprise wandered around before they even found anything, they kind of lost that speed advantage. Even if the other ships couldn't do warp 5, then they'd just have to make due with whatever the slowest ship could do. Or better yet, while they were upgrading Enterprise's weaponry, they could have been upgrading the engines and weaponry of some more ships so that speed gap wouldn't be so bad.

but it is interesting when people go after on stuff that is either directly addresed or a plausiable explanation is given in the story.
Yes, fans can have fun explaining things away, putting a lot more thought into the show than the people who made it bothered to. I've done it myself, and it can be fun, but I still point out the faults because the truth is, it frustrates me that someone like me or you, who is most definitely not getting paid to do so, can come up with these explanations to fix all these faults when someone who was getting paid to do so couldn't or wouldn't.

Nerys Myk said:
The point is we've seen Vulcans without the "classic" look before. So its not unique. I dont recall a torrent of complaints after STII was released. Even Vulcan eye brows might show a little IDIC.
I'd expect as much variety among them as among humans, but not that much. Might as well lose the ears while you're at it.

By "unthought of" I was refering to certian creative directions that did not follow the usual fan expectations. Whicn tend to follow the fanon ingrained by years misremembered or totally made up factoids passed from fan to fan.
Such as? Sounds as much an opinion as anything else I've posted here.

I assume you are refering to certian design elements used, because the ship is pretty primative when compared to the 1707 or the 1701-D.
Not really. It looks too much like an Akira class with reversed pylons and TOS nacelles. I'll admit that the design has grown on me, but it's still an Akira class with a little tweaking here and there.

There were quite a few TOS "easter eggs" in the design.
You mean the TOS style nacelles and the dome on the bottom? That'd be about it, at least on the exterior.

Who to say what a ship woulsd look like 100 years prior to TOS any way?
Anyone who's seen what the Akira class of the late 24th Century looks like, which is more a matter of what it shouldn't have looked like.

May the ship designers in the TNG era went retro and not futuristic.
I've heard that one before, but the Constellation of today bears very little resemblance to the one sailing the oceans 200 years ago, nor does the F-22 look much like the fighters of WWI less than 100 years ago.

Of course both the NX-01 and the Akira are based on an old 20th Century airplane design anyway.
The twin hulls bear a little resemblance to the P-38's twin tails because of the objects on top of them, which resemble the WWII fighter's superchargers, but that is the only resemblance. The similarities between the Akira and the NX-01 are far more numerous.

Too soon by who's reckoning? Picard says "centuries", as in more than one. Which fits with it happening 200 years before TNG. That other "date", allegedly from "Day of the Dove", is a myth. As distasters go it might have looked small when it happened, but it did set the course for human/Federation relationships with the Klingons for decades to come. One incident after another making a bad situation worse. So in retrospect it would be deemed a disaster.
Not really. In its TNG context, it made a very strong case for the existence of the Prime Directive in one of the few episodes where it actually made sense. It involved simply charging in and revealing themselves to less developed aliens. What about that situation bears any resemblance to what happened in Broken Bow.

Both the Ferengi and Borg episodes were well handled.
I beg to differ.

You might not like how they skirted the name issue, but it worked to perserve continuity.
Through the cop-out of not mentioning the names.

TOS got its props in ENT.
In Season 4, but that was about it, and S4 hasn't aged all that well either.

And making the show more like TOS would not make it a better prequel.
It wouldn't have had to be made like TOS, it just should've acknowledged its existence better and fit into what had been established as its history, or at least reconciled it as best as could be done. And before you say that it did, we'll just have to disagree on that point. ;)
 
The show had its flaws but it did often use pre-existing openings or puzzle pieces left by other Trek films or series to expand on or use to their benefit--considering Cochrane as the pilot in "Future Tense", tying together the Augments with the Klingon forehead issue which provided a rather clever explanation as to the human-look and the more refined behavior of the TOS Klingons, Sussman and Strong remembered the scratch from the pilot in "Dead Stop, they used First Contact brilliantly to bring the Borg into the 22nd century, the Xindi arc was for the most part without too many flaws and relied heavily on what came before in numerous ways, season four pretty much drew upon TOS/TNG/DS9.
 
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