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Ron Moore: Problem With Trek Movies

Trying to do the perfect Star Trek film isn't very easy considering the fact that you have a core fan base that you have to please. If it doesn't feel like a 90 min. or 2hr. Star Trek episode then you're going to loose a your audience that you're trying to please. If you get filmmakers that also don't know the source material and were never fans of it, trying to put their own spin on it, then you end up with film that looks more like an average sci-fi film with Star Trek cosplayers. IMHO the only Star Trek film that seems more like a episode of Star Trek is TMP.

It does also need to be accessible to those who aren't the core fan base too though, which means a 2hr episode isn't going to cut it.

Got to remember that the core are the ones who care about the lore and the history etc, the gen pop are the ones who bring in enough money to make sure the studio produces further films.

This is a bloody fine line to walk
 
Still, Star Trek II was at least produced by a guy who sat down and watched every episode and was very concerned with the fanbase. There was an emphasis on character and was in the space opera vein of the original series. It wasn’t trying to be a blockbuster. Just the opposite, it was a modestly budgeted film that just wanted to be an entertaining story. New York critics of the day actually called it “an overblown TV show.” So it wasn’t a Big Summer Tentpole Blockbuster. It made less money than the first but made a larger profit (or so it’s been said) and was a critical improvement over the first.

Agreed, but I still think the film was chock full of drama and high stakes as well as the action and excellent character work. Once the end credits roll I still feel as pumped as I would if I'd just watched one of the reboots. Maybe it's because I saw it twice on the big screen in 1982 and it blew me away. And yes it was more profitable (probably the most profitable of the lot) due to it's 12m budget compared to TMP's then massive 46m.

Arguably, the second, third and fourth films were the most successful critically as well as in how they captured the essence of the series without bending the format to appeal to the normal or having to shoehorn studio mandates. It was “Star Trek before it became a franchise.”

Thinking about it, there hadn't really been that many sequels released by 1982 - Superman 2, Empire, Godfather, Rocky, I'm struggling to name many more.

Star Trek doesn’t require blistering action and lots of yuks to be good. Look at the best of Star Trek: how much action was in City on the Edge of Forever? Did Mirror, Mirror require 51 minutes of space battles? At the same time, The Doomsday Machine and Balance of Terror aren’t great episodes because of the combat. They’re exceptionally well written character pieces with a semi-subtle commentary. There needs to be content, not simply pyrotechnics. Something has to separate Trek from Wars other than "the guy with the ears" or whatever.

You'll get no argument from me there, my point is that an extended version of the TV show doesn't cut the mustard IMO. I want to see something with a bigger scope if I'm paying over £10 to see it at the cinema. I want more of an event. Insurrection wasn't even as much as an event as half the series it was based on.

Even The Wrath of Khan wasn’t an “action movie” per se. It was a movie with action sequences – and not even that many. After the simulation, the first ship confrontation 45 minutes in, then the climax – much of which was a “seek and destroy” submarine type sequence. Star Trek's 2 and 4 were repeatedly used as templates for box office success, but the studio kept looking at the wrong things. It wasn't simply the battles, the laughs, the time travel and Khan like villain that made these films work. Without good writing, content and character, that's just bullshit.

The wrath of khan was lightning in a bottle as far as Star Trek was concerned. To me it has it all. Action, drama, suspense, great villain, brilliant character arc for Kirk (and Shatner's best performance in the role IMO), superb score, heartbreaking and ultimately uplifting ending, great visuals for the day, the list goes on. It's also accessible to non fans - it was my wife's first ever piece of Star Trek she ever watched and she enjoyed it, and she generally hates stuff like this. My 5 year old daughter loves it more than the rest too. None of this is a coincidence.

It's no great surprise they keep trying to capture it.
 
Agreed, but I still think the film was chock full of drama and high stakes as well as the action and excellent character work. Once the end credits roll I still feel as pumped as I would if I'd just watched one of the reboots. Maybe it's because I saw it twice on the big screen in 1982 and it blew me away. And yes it was more profitable (probably the most profitable of the lot) due to it's 12m budget compared to TMP's then massive 46m.

Absolutely. It functions well as a good movie without having to pander to the tastes of the masses. It fills in the blanks for the normals but is also very concerned with the fanbase.

Thinking about it, there hadn't really been that many sequels released by 1982 - Superman 2, Empire, Godfather, Rocky, I'm struggling to name many more.

Jaws 2, The French Connection 2, a variety of Planet of the Apes films, Halloween 2, Friday the 13th part 2.... Sequel Mania didn't take hold until around this time, though. I don't include the James Bond and Godzilla films since they were "mostly" unconnected adventures.

The wrath of khan was lightning in a bottle as far as Star Trek was concerned. To me it has it all. Action, drama, suspense, great villain, brilliant character arc for Kirk (and Shatner's best performance in the role IMO), superb score, heartbreaking and ultimately uplifting ending, great visuals for the day, the list goes on. It's also accessible to non fans - it was my wife's first ever piece of Star Trek she ever watched and she enjoyed it, and she generally hates stuff like this. My 5 year old daughter loves it more than the rest too. None of this is a coincidence.

It's no great surprise they keep trying to capture it.

Agreed here too.
 
Without good writing, content and character, that's just bullshit.
That's movie making 101 but that's not what fans talk about. They talk about Khan, Kirk's screaming "Khan" Spock's death, the battle of the nebulae, etc. I completely get why the studios are constantly trying to recreate TWOK-fans treat it as a holy ground while emphasizing things that were flavor but not the core.
The core of TWOK is a revenge style story. That was Meyer's one take away from rewatching TOS-"That guy must be pissed." Then he took classic storytelling themes (revenge, aging, fear of death, losing control) and worked it all together. It wasn't a blockbuster in that sense but it was a bit different than what Trek had done in a while.

No, Star Trek doesn't have to have blistering action, but it helps. It adds that flavor that general audiences truly enjoy, especially right now. ST 09 demonstrated that but then the studio (again) focused on the wrong thing.
 
Well, I'm am a fan and what I tend to talk about are the moments that move me:

"And also that I'm proud...very proud...to be your son."
"I feel young."
"I have been and always shall be your friend."

"Klingon bastard you've killed my son!"
"My God, Bones, what have I done?"
"You're name...is Jim!"

"I love Italian...and so do you."
"...Yes."

"I weep for V'Ger as I would a brother."

"You're a doctor..."
"I'm his son."
"Why have you done this to my friend?!" (his friend! The man he was adversary to the entire film - I love Sybok)
"What does God need with a starship?"

"Let them die!"
"...and you've restored my son's." (closing off an arc started 3 films earlier)

That's what gets me in the films. The characters, the moments, the things that make them real and make me sit through some real slogs. The rest is just "getting the normals in the theater." I accept them, but I would love to see someone just try make a good Star Trek film first and a blockbuster second. Stop making Trek a summer tent pole and put it out in March.
 
I accept them, but I would love to see someone just try make a good Star Trek film first and a blockbuster second. Stop making Trek a summer tent pole and put it out in March.
Unfortunately, we live in the age of tentpoles. Studios don't just put out films like they use to.

Though, my attitude is more simple-just make a good film that happens to be Star Trek. Star Trek is not so special that it requires special handling as a film.
 
It seems like nearly every Trek film follows the same template based on the reception of TWOK. A lot of what Moore says rings true to me in that the films are forced to be something Star Trek wasn’t intended to be.

I think Star Trek could be done big screen without jettisoning its identity, but it would take real courage to do it given the usual expectations. There are a number of TOS and TNG episodes that could have been expanded into a longer running time. There are also a number of non Trek films that one could easily see being done as Trek.

Master And Commander: The Far Side Of The World is arguably the best Trek film never made. And TOS’ “Balance Of Terror” is a sci-fi adaptation of The Enemy Below. Forbidden Planet is something of a template for Star Trek before there was a Star Trek. TMP stumbles in place, but in many respects, for me, feels more like TOS than any of the other films. TFF is another flawed effort that also feels like TOS in many ways.

Star Trek was contemporary drama set in a science fiction setting for television. But being SF the temptation to make it a rollercoaster spectacle when translated to cinema is near irresistible and its core identity is often lost in the process.

When I think of the best parts of Star Trek I immediately recall it isn’t the space fleets or ship battles. It’s the dramatic moments of characters verbally (and sometimes physically) sparring with each other.
 
Star Trek has long appealed on many levels, but the mistake made when bringing it to cinema is to try making it into a big, splashy rollercoaster spectacle—making it like Star Wars or any other action oriented and fx heavy spectacle. The films often lose sight of the core of what made the best television Star Trek work. As such film Trek is made to appeal to the same shallow expectations general audiences expects of facile sci-fi features.
 
Star Trek has long appealed on many levels, but the mistake made when bringing it to cinema is to try making it into a big, splashy rollercoaster spectacle—making it like Star Wars or any other action oriented and fx heavy spectacle. The films often lose sight of the core of what made the best television Star Trek work. As such film Trek is made to appeal to the same shallow expectations general audiences expects of facile sci-fi features.
Too bad that ST 09 and the follow ups failed at that. Some of the deepest emotional moments for me in Star Trek.
 
Thinking about it, there hadn't really been that many sequels released by 1982 - Superman 2, Empire, Godfather, Rocky, I'm struggling to name many more.

Jaws 2, The French Connection 2, a variety of Planet of the Apes films, Halloween 2, Friday the 13th part 2.... Sequel Mania didn't take hold until around this time, though. I don't include the James Bond and Godzilla films since they were "mostly" unconnected adventures.
Sequels go waaaay back before that. e.g.

The Thin Man (1934)
After the Thin Man (1936)
Another Thin Man (1939)
Shadow of the Thin Man (1941)
The Thin Man Goes Home (1945)
Song of the Thin Man (1947)

Creature from the Black Lagoon (1954)
Revenge of the Creature (1955)
The Creature Walks Among Us (1956)

etc. etc. etc.
 
Well, sure. Son of Kong, Bride of Frankenstein, Dracula's Daughter, Frankenstein Meets the Wolf Man, RKO and MGM's Tarzan films, and even in silent films like The Sheik, Son of the Sheik. I was picking mostly the more recent, popular and obvious examples, but I could have listed dozens at the very least from throughout the 100 + years of cinema. While I could be wrong, since I'm only in my 50's, but the idea that sequels would be expected didn't really take hold until the 80's.
 
I think the idea of actually numbering sequels started happening in the late ‘70s into the ‘80s. Before that they just gave the sequels actual titles.

You had Star Wars, Star Wars - The Empire Strikes Back and Star Wars - Return Of The Jedi rather than Star Wars, Star Wars 2 - The Empire Strikes Back and Star Wars 3 - Return Of The Jedi. Mind you we also had Superman, Superman 2, Superman 3 and Superman 4. The Apes movies just had Planet Of The Apes as part of the title.
 
Using a number in a sequel title didn't enter mainstream Hollywood until the 70s. The Godfather part two, Jaws 2 then Superman II... after that it became more commonplace. Wow there were plenty of sequels throughout the decades, most of them just had a different title. Quatermass 2 was, I think, the first sequel to use a number.
 
Using a number in a sequel title didn't enter mainstream Hollywood until the 70s. The Godfather part two, Jaws 2 then Superman II... after that it became more commonplace. Wow there were plenty of sequels throughout the decades, most of them just had a different title. Quatermass 2 was, I think, the first sequel to use a number.
Not QB VII?
 
The movies, at least prior to J.J. Abrams, were essentially reunion specials put on the big screen. That was a big part of their appeal, to see the cast you've watched for several seasons reunite for another adventure and the kind you wouldn't have possibly gotten on TV. TNG fumbled it partly by making their stories too episodic. Then the Bad Robot films tried to stand on their own but fizzled out. At this point, I don't think Trek belongs on the big screen anymore.

If Ron Moore ever returns to Trek, I really hope it's for a TV series rather than a movie.

This is an interesting point. Personally, I think that there is still room for new Star Trek movies - just not in the way we're used to. Bringing TV Casts to the big screen just isn't a big deal anymore, nor is it necessary. Star Trek film, in my opinion, should explore isolated adventures or exploration of existing lore.

For example, a film focused entirely on The Bell Riots would likely perform very well to both a general audience and to Trekkies (with the right marketing, of course). It could be based off any loose tie to canon without needing to be anchored by an existing crew. I believe thats the next best step for Star Trek on the big screen moving forward.
 
The basic Trek narrative seems to do much better over a longer story (tv) than in a 2 hr format. The current series seem to have it right at 10-13hrs to tell a story. TMP was an exception because it was the first and was a 2001-esque visual epic. Beyond has really grown on me and is now one of my faves. I'm convinced it may be one of the best balanced Trek films and it didn't depend on time travel or "save the Earth" gimmicks to tell its story.
 
It is perfectly possible to tell a decent self-contained Trek story in a film. The fact they keep failing to do so without following the same old template isn’t proof it can’t be done, but only that it hasn’t been done.
 
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