Roddenberry calls Wrath embarrassing

[BillJ]

Star Trek became a success in spite of Roddenberry, not because of him. That's true for both TOS and TNG.

He was very much instrumental in the success of the original Star Trek. I don't know how anyone could interpret things any other way. As far as his contributions to TNG? It was pretty successful right out of the gate. Though I'll leave it to those better informed than I about how much of TNG was Roddenberry's and how much of it was Gerrold, Fontana, Justman and others.

 

[Jayson1]

He was very much instrumental in the success of the original Star Trek. I don't know how anyone could interpret things any other way. As far as his contributions to TNG? It was pretty successful right out of the gate. Though I'll leave it to those better informed than I about how much of TNG was Roddenberry's and how much of it was Gerrold, Fontana, Justman and others.

I think the the difference between "TOS" being a okay show and a great show was Coon and Fontana etc. Without them I think it might have just been a passable show but not something that became iconic. I'm not sure Roddenberry was a great writer or anything special were even his bad stuff is still kind of good. I think it might be seen as one of those old shows people use to watch in reruns but nobody really cares about it anymore. A "Gilligan's Island" or "Hogans Hero's" etc.

Jason

 

[BillJ]

I think the the difference between "TOS" being a okay show and a great show was Coon and Fontana etc. Without them I think it might have just been a passable show but not something that became iconic. I'm not sure Roddenberry was a great writer or anything special were even his bad stuff is still kind of good. I think it might be seen as one of those old shows people use to watch in reruns but nobody really cares about it anymore. A "Gilligan's Island" or "Hogans Hero's" etc.

Jason

You do realize that Roddenberry hired those folks? It was his show, he also did a metric fuck-ton of rewriting. And, he created the whole thing to begin with.

I'm not someone that worships at the altar of the Rod (I actually hate giving him credit for something I love so much because he was an atrocious human being), and a lot of people were integral in making it special. But, without Roddenberry, there's nothing.

 

[GNDN18]

Without GR, there is no Star Trek. As the first cause, if you will, his importance cannot be overstated. But his self-aggrandizement obscured the contributions and refinements brought to bear by all the others.

My resentment towards GR is a response to his clay feet; it’s difficult for me to be objective about the Creator (or Landru, as I like to call him), because he failed to live up to the ideals of his creation. To be quite honest, I feel betrayed by GR and for no good reason. When I was younger, I looked up to him. Now I see that GR was, like most artists, a flawed human being who created something that transcended his human frailty.

Which is about as Trekkian an idea as it gets.

 

[BigDaveX]

I think "The Cage" shows that while a version of TOS based purely on Roddenberry's ideas wouldn't necessarily have been bad at all, it wouldn't have been as memorable or influential as what we got. In retrospect, I think the main problem the first pilot had was that it appeared to be setting up a series where Captain Pike, Number One and Yeoman Colt were the three main characters, and they were all shown as being a bit too stoic and professional. Spock and Dr. Boyce evidently were the characters that resonated more with the execs, judging by the former being the sole surviving Cage character, and Boyce being a clear inspiration for McCoy.

Now, a version of TNG based purely on Roddenberry's ideas... that would almost certainly have been a complete disaster!

 

[Nyotarules]

I feel that way. I mean I have known for years that people like Gene Coon and Dorthy Fontona had more to do with TOS being great and TNG was turned around because of Micheal Piller and even Rick Berman not to mention tons of others that foolowed like Behr. Moore, Jeri Taylor etc. I also knew he was a cad back during his TOS days but the more you read about him, he comes off as a self centered asshole who would screw anyone over to be famous and make money.

Jason

But, but, but, but Star Trek and Roddenberry's dreammmmmmmmm

 

[Valenti]

2001 was a great film if you don't equate art with money.
It's also not fair to equate the artist with the art. Wagner was an anti-Semite. John Lennon was part and parcel an asshole too.

 

[mb22]

Most of the early pre-Coon episodes were quite good (or at least had some good things in them). Aside from Justman, credit should be given to John D.F. Black and Steve Carabatsos.

 

[STEPhon IT]

The producers of Mission: Impossible (the tv series not the garbage movies) said of the creator of the show Bruce Geller..
"He didn't know how the show worked"
Think the same thing could be said here..came up with the show, wrote the pilot but others made it work.

But the "Others" like Berman, Piller, Jeri Taylor, Ron Moore, Ira Behr, Brannon Braga has all created other projects but how many people remember what they've done, and were their creations considered successful??? GR may have been a lot of things but it was his playpen these "Others" well most successful.

I'm sorry so many believe their were dramatic differences from season 1 to 3 on TNG, but besides wardrobe alterations and sprinkling more of the same from TOS like Romulans and more Klingon plotlines and finally having a define threat (The Borg) the show was the same. The audience simply got used to the surroundings and the characters, supporting characters may had turn to a different direction but the core cast remained true to GR vision.
Make crazy alterations of the characters like what the "Others" did to them in those TNG movies, and you'll see GR restrictions were not that bad.

 

[Jayson1]

But the "Others" like Berman, Piller, Jeri Taylor, Ron Moore, Ira Behr, Brannon Braga has all created other projects but how many people remember what they've done, and were their creations considered successful??? GR may have been a lot of things but it was his playpen these "Others" well most successful.

I'm sorry so many believe their were dramatic differences from season 1 to 3 on TNG, but besides wardrobe alterations and sprinkling more of the same from TOS like Romulans and more Klingon plotlines and finally having a define threat (The Borg) the show was the same. The audience simply got used to the surroundings and the characters, supporting characters may had turn to a different direction but the core cast remained true to GR vision.
Make crazy alterations of the characters like what the "Others" did to them in those TNG movies, and you'll see GR restrictions were not that bad.

Well "Battlestar Galatica" I think is well loved. Moore is the only one who has had great success out of Trek unless we count Fuller and Cotto. Still I have liked some of the stuff the others have done such as "Orville" "Legend" and "Threshold" and the first season and a half of "Andromeda" and "The 4400." I do think TNG changed very much in season 3. The embraced future speak more which I admit also included technobabble. Data almost feels like a different character and Picard becomes more elegant and less grumpy. Also the stories became more character oriented and the plots had a almost police procedural aproach. They felt less like explorers and more like greenpeace if they also doubled as ambassadors and soldiers.

Jason

 

[jaime]

But the "Others" like Berman, Piller, Jeri Taylor, Ron Moore, Ira Behr, Brannon Braga has all created other projects but how many people remember what they've done, and were their creations considered successful??? GR may have been a lot of things but it was his playpen these "Others" well most successful.

I'm sorry so many believe their were dramatic differences from season 1 to 3 on TNG, but besides wardrobe alterations and sprinkling more of the same from TOS like Romulans and more Klingon plotlines and finally having a define threat (The Borg) the show was the same. The audience simply got used to the surroundings and the characters, supporting characters may had turn to a different direction but the core cast remained true to GR vision.
Make crazy alterations of the characters like what the "Others" did to them in those TNG movies, and you'll see GR restrictions were not that bad.

I am a very big supporter of the Genes Dream aspects you support...however....
Piller made TNG a much bigger success, and we will never know how well he would have done outside of Trek, because he wasn’t in the greatest health and died some years ago. The others have all been more successful outside of Trek than Rodenberry himself was...go have a flick through what the TNG alumni are up to now...Outlander, Elementary, BSG reboot (some time ago now) The Expanse, Orville...
I mostly agree about the changes wrought in the TNG movies, except the only real problem there was Spiner and Stewart moving into producing and getting script refusal.

I also do t believe Genes restrictions should be any kind of problem for a decent writer, and Piller in particular showed how that worked.

 

[ChallengerHK]

This account, which has shown up in a few books and is even regurgitated in an early paper I wrote

What's the topic of the paper?

 

[STEPhon IT]

Well "Battlestar Galatica" I think is well loved.

I don't even remember the series existed. I've asked my brother about it and he mentioned the series was difficult to tune in because the series was constantly moving from SyFy Channel to USA Network to Bravo to NBC. I wouldn't call a show which was moving all over the place to be successful. How long did this show lasted?

 

[Jayson1]

I don't even remember the series existed. I've asked my brother about it and he mentioned the series was difficult to tune in because the series was constantly moving from SyFy Channel to USA Network to Bravo to NBC. I wouldn't call a show which was moving all over the place to be successful. How long did this show lasted?

I think they might have ran reruns on those channels but I am sure all the episodes were shown on Sci-Fi. It's also a show that while it was a cult hit also was a rare sci-fi show that mainstream critics tended to love. Granted I sometimes dislike how people wouldn't say it's really sci-fi. That always annoys me because it basically implies if something is good it couldn't possible be from that genre. It's genre snobbery.

Jason

 

[STEPhon IT]

I am a very big supporter of the Genes Dream aspects you support...however....
Piller made TNG a much bigger success, and we will never know how well he would have done outside of Trek, because he wasn’t in the greatest health and died some years ago. The others have all been more successful outside of Trek than Rodenberry himself was...go have a flick through what the TNG alumni are up to now...Outlander, Elementary, BSG reboot (some time ago now) The Expanse, Orville...

I doubt any those shows you've mentioned will be remembered in 10 years, only by cult fans. Is that considered a success? Not to me. Piller allowed his writers to write the best stories they could, but I doubt the writers had carte blanche on every story. In the later seasons of TNG the show looked better but I don't think the stories were better-nor worse, they just added more fanwank plots for fans to cater to.

 

[Jayson1]

I doubt any those shows you've mentioned will be remembered in 10 years, only by cult fans. Is that considered a success? Not to me. Piller allowed his writers to write the best stories they could, but I doubt the writers had carte blanche on every story. In the later seasons of TNG the show looked better but I don't think the stories were better-nor worse, they just added more fanwank plots for fans to cater to.

Oh they will be remembered by sci-fi fans. We never forget any shows. Except for "Baywatch Nights" We try and suppress that. I think this counts as a success because it doesn't happen with most maiinsteam shows. 20 years from now people won't even know the difference between Law and Order,CSI and NCIS. I don't think I even know the difference and I live in the present day. Aren't they all basically the same show staring some sexy young people in supporting roles, One tv star who will be remembered for something better he or she did in the past more than their current show and a older character actor who plays boss. Also one nerd but it's a sexy tv nerd.

Jason

 

[jaime]

Oh they will be remembered by sci-fi fans. We never forget any shows. Except for "Baywatch Nights" We try and suppress that. I think this counts as a success because it doesn't happen with most maiinsteam shows. 20 years from now people won't even know the difference between Law and Order,CSI and NCIS. I don't think I even know the difference and I live in the present day. Aren't they all basically the same show staring some sexy young people in supporting roles, One tv star who will be remembered for something better he or she did in the past more than their current show and a older character actor who plays boss. Also one nerd but it's a sexy tv nerd.

Jason

People have already forgotten Jag. But...I have a feeling Abby will last in the collective mind.

 

[F. King Daniel]

None of us will ever forget Thunder in Paradise.

Pretty sure Hulk Hogan was a Time Lord, since his boat was noticeably bigger on the inside.

 

[Garth Rockett]

I don't even remember the series existed. I've asked my brother about it and he mentioned the series was difficult to tune in because the series was constantly moving from SyFy Channel to USA Network to Bravo to NBC. I wouldn't call a show which was moving all over the place to be successful. How long did this show lasted?

As Jason said, the show's first run was only on SyFy. It didn't even change timeslots - it ran Friday nights at 10 ET / 9 CT the whole run. It ran 4 seasons, from 2005-2009 (preceded by a miniseries in late 2003). It was popular enough that it was referenced a few times on The Office (Dwight was a fan). It spawned a spinoff (Caprica). It won a Peabody, a Hugo and 4 Emmys. Don't discount the success of that show.

 

[BillJ]

Roddenberry calls TWOK embarrassing...

...then rushes as fast as he can to cash the check he received for it.