Roberto Orci Not Directing Trek XIII

[Mudd]

Trolls and fans = mushrooms and toadstools; it's pretty important to recognize the difference, but even experts make mistakes.

 

[BillJ]

How someone takes criticism is a good window into their psyche.

The dude treated some fannish jackasses with the contempt they deserve. Win.

You know who else Paramount fired off of Star Trek?

Gene Roddenberry.

And it was immeasurably better for it.

I really find comments like these funny. The entire universe is spun off those original three seasons and are based on Roddenberry's philosophies. Without Roddenberry and the rest of the TOS writers, producers, directors and actors... there is no Deep Space Nine or whatever other spinoff you happen to like.

Every one who works in these industries has been let go from a job at some point. It's life working in said industry.

 

[BillJ]

Trolls and fans = mushrooms and toadstools; it's pretty important to recognize the difference, but even experts make mistakes.

I think fans need to police fans to some degree, if they want a true dialogue with creators.

 

[Commishsleer]

Could you provide specific concrete examples, please?

This is true.

At the exact same time as Trek, shows like Judd For The Defense were dramatizing social issues in a direct, contemporary fashion - issues that GR later liked to claim he had to disguise in order to slip by NBC's management. People don't remember those shows because it's really not enough that a drama "raise adult issues" for it to be remembered; Trek is actually remembered for the fact that it was colorful, somewhat sophisticated (for the time) and exciting fantasy of a sort that was pretty unique.

This is addressing Shazam asking for examples because for some reason, the quotes above are screwed up and it looks like I'm asking for them.

Like Dennis said, it's not that TOS didn't have occasional messages (however subtle), but it was hardly ground-breaking, unique to it, or what it should be remembered first for.

Eamples? In minority representation on screen during TOS's run:
-- Latino major characters on High Chaparral (1967-71) who weren't trivialized and even spoke Spanish to each other in the episodes.
-- I Spy (1965-68), with Bill Cosby in a lead role.
-- Julia (1968-71), first sitcom with a female African-American lead.
-- The Lucy Show (1962-68) had a strong female character who didn't rely on a man.
-- That Girl (1966-71) had a career-oriented female lead.
-- The Mod Squad (1968-73) had an African American and female lead.
-- Mission Impossible (1966-73) had an African American in a lead role.

There are probably others.

Examples of issues and other intelligent science fiction before and just after TOS's run:
-- The Defenders (1961-65) tackled civil rights issues and even abortion. The show won thirteen Emmys.
-- The Twilight Zone.
-- The Alfred Hitchcock Hour.
-- Gunsmoke dealt with racial issues, the meaning of family, being outsiders, and religious commitment. It addressed its issues by hiding behind the setting of the late 1800s west just as TOS hid behind the 23rd century and green-haired women.
-- 60 Minutes aired in 1968, bringing issues to prime time without a filter.

Again, there are probably others.

Certainly in the years immediately following the cancellation of TOS, network TV became even more overt about how they handled contemporary issues like sexuality, sexism, race relations, and such.

TOS was up there with high quality and intelligent-minded TV of the day, but it was no real ground-breaker or chance taker.

The other thing is, when TV did make it OK to bring formerly taboo issues right out into the open and address them almost matter-of-factly (gay characters, interracial couples, touchy political and social issues), relatively speaking in the new environment, TNG and its family of Trek shows played it very safe.

People say to me wasn't TOS the first show to have an inter-racial kiss? Even if that wasn't strictly true. It was sure remembered as soing it.

And in all the shows you mentioned Julia, the Lucy Show, That Girl etc - the strong women characters that didn't need a man had careers as nurses, secretaries, actresses - acceptable careers for women at the time. Even in Mod Squad the female lead was an ex-drug addict. She didn't work her way through the police academy.
TOS was littered with female doctors, scientists, lawyers (well one). Sure no military leaders and I wouldn't call TOS that progressive but it was better than most of the shows around. Yes and a lot of the women were just love fodder for Kirk but I assume that Dr Dehner had earned her degree and these women were sort of role models for me at least.
The pilot episode had a women as second in command in the military. Number One commanded men. They followed her orders.

Someone pointed out Time Tunnel had Lee Meriwether as a scientist but I can't remember many other shows at the time where women weren't secretaries, actresses, nurses, femme fatales.

 

[Mudd]

People say to me wasn't TOS the first show to have an inter-racial kiss?

Because it wasn't.

Even if that wasn't strictly true. It was sure remembered as soing it.

If people remember things wrongly, that's their lookout. Thing is, Trek fans are always claiming credit for the show with claims that aren't true.

 

[bbailey861]

Maybe Nimoy will do it. I heard there's going to be a whale in the movie....or was that wail?

 

[The Doctor]

I hear JJ Abrams is available after December 2015...

 

[Ovation]

Spielberg handled Jurassic Park and Schindler's List as overlapping productions (physically separated quite a bit as well) back in the early 90s. If Abrams wanted to, he could certainly manage double duty on both "Star" projects. Would he? No idea (and his family might seriously protest--mine would if I had that many time constraints). But there's no technical impediment to him taking both on. As I thoroughly enjoyed his first two Trek films (and more so each time I watch them), I'd love to see him come back. If not, Brad Bird would be my first choice.

 

[Dac]

I just don't think JJ has any interest in it. He's in Star Wars mode now and needs to be right up until its release at Christmas next year. That provides an unrealistic timeframe to make a movie for 2016 (which as far as I'm aware is still the goal, gotta have that marketing synergy).

He's moved on to greener pastures. Now, if Star Wars had a George Lucas script and was a clusterfuck then maybe I could see him coming back to a solid Trek project, but Paramount ditched the script and director and as it stands the project is without both. At the moment, Star Wars has wrapped, buzz is at a ridiculous level and post production will no doubt be demanding.

Not even taking into account the goodness of his heart, jumping back to Trek is a bad business decision.

Plus, not only running both Trek and Wars but at the same time is too much power for one man, personally. :P

 

[Commishsleer]

Public figures should know better than to descend to the level of Internet trolls.

I think that what is acceptable for fandom to say and do is acceptable for those making the material. If they want civilized treatment from the creators, then they can treat the creators in a civilized manner. YMMV.

Criticism can and should be civilized. Otherwise it's just bashing and nerdrage. Pretty much like what Mike Stolaska has been doing through his Plinkett persona.

Most public figures don't "descend" to the level of engaging with fans.

I wasn't talking about engaging with fans, I was talking about arguing with trolls.

I believe Orci was doing fans a favour by interacting with them. Of course they shouldn't have to agree with him but they should at least treat him with a modicum of respect.

People say to me wasn't TOS the first show to have an inter-racial kiss?

Because it wasn't.

Even if that wasn't strictly true. It was sure remembered as soing it.

If people remember things wrongly, that's their lookout. Thing is, Trek fans are always claiming credit for the show with claims that aren't true.

Surely TOS can get some credit for being one of the first? GR for ensuring it happened on his show. Wouldn't it have been easier for GR not to do it?
I mean does Mod Squad get no credit for its female lead because other shows did it first?

I think people take things like having women doctors and scientists for granted nowadays but I can't remember them on many other 60 TV shows.
I also think showing non-white people as Admirals or Commodores, or as one of the best Earth scientists ever was pretty interesting.

 

[BillJ]

Surely TOS can get some credit for being one of the first? GR for ensuring it happened on his show. Wouldn't it have been easier for GR not to do it?

Since it was season three, wouldn't it have been Freiberger that was in charge?

One of the things that really bothers me is how much Roddenberry rewrote the history of TOS to put himself in a positive light. Much of it ends up not being true but there is a 'Cult of Roddenberry' that still believes it after all these years and evidence to the contrary.

 

[Mudd]

Surely TOS can get some credit for being one of the first? GR for ensuring it happened on his show. Wouldn't it have been easier for GR not to do it?

Since it was season three, wouldn't it have been Freiberger that was in charge?

One of the things that really bothers me is how much Roddenberry rewrote the history of TOS to put himself in a positive light. Much of it ends up not being true but there is a 'Cult of Roddenberry' that still believes it after all these years and evidence to the contrary.

Exactly so.

 

[BigJake]

Oh, wow, I missed this from a couple days back:

It was the show (and movies) that taught us new ways to look at the world; a narrative that wasn't afraid to delve into questions of philosophy, asking both the characters and the viewers to re-examine themselves in the face of strange new worlds and new ideas, and come away from the experience at little more open-minded, if not more educated.

Praise be to Allah.

No, seriously, what? You didn't answer the person you were ostensibly somehow replying to, so I'm asking you again, Clegg, what the actual frack is up with this?

 

[Ovation]

At a guess, comparing the poster's stance on the "Roddenberry Vision" to the kind of religious devotion found among, in this case, Muslims? (could just as easily been Christians, but was looking for variety?)

 

[BigJake]

^ Yes, it kind of looks like an attempt to obnoxiously imply one's opponent is a fanatic by implying they're comparable to a Muslim, which basically rolls fannish dickery and racism into one package and would be pretty disappointing from Clegg, who's usually better than that.

 

[Mach5]

I believe Orci was doing fans a favour by interacting with them. Of course they shouldn't have to agree with him but they should at least treat him with a modicum of respect.

Doesn't change the fact that what he did was undignified. Jesus, he admitted this himself, didn't he?

Don't celebrate the man for doing something he later regretted.

 

[fireproof78]

I believe Orci was doing fans a favour by interacting with them. Of course they shouldn't have to agree with him but they should at least treat him with a modicum of respect.

Doesn't change the fact that what he did was undignified. Jesus, he admitted this himself, didn't he?

Don't celebrate the man for doing something he later regretted.

But should he be held in contempt for the same thing for the rest of his career?

I personally would not mind Orci being in charge of ST'3, but since he is not, I hope that he continues on in some capacity with the production.

 

[Franklin]

Surely TOS can get some credit for being one of the first? GR for ensuring it happened on his show. Wouldn't it have been easier for GR not to do it?

Since it was season three, wouldn't it have been Freiberger that was in charge?

One of the things that really bothers me is how much Roddenberry rewrote the history of TOS to put himself in a positive light. Much of it ends up not being true but there is a 'Cult of Roddenberry' that still believes it after all these years and evidence to the contrary.

Exactly so.

+1

Freiberger was charge in season three, but they'd still go to Roddenberry on some things.

No one denies TOS was a very good show and it did put women and minorities in strong supporting (guest-starring) roles. The "cult" tries to pass the show off as ground-breaking or pioneering however, and I (for one) draw the line at that.

Further, as I said before, the Trek that followed (TNG, DS9, VOY) was very conventional and even conservative (as in staid) in presenting itself compared to where the cutting edge of progressive TV had gone by the mid-1980s. The environment was far more ripe for pushing the envelope then, as well.

 

[BillJ]

But should he be held in contempt for the same thing for the rest of his career?

Orci will be vilified until the end of time for that one comment. The Great Trekkie War III will be caused because one side felt it wasn't a big deal. Four hundred civilizations are destroyed.

 

[BillJ]

Further, as I said before, the Trek that followed was very conventional and even conservative in presenting itself compared to where TV had gone and where it was going in the mid-1980s to early 1990s. The environment was far more ripe for pushing the envelope then, as well.

Which is sad, because Roddenberry no longer had to work with network censors. Yet TNG comes off as far more conservative than TOS.