• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Rey in The Force Awakens (Possible Spoilers)

The Obi-Wan-Anakin duel was, IMO, clearly lacking ... if not in banter, then in verbal sparring. There was some of it (mostly at the end, with Obi-Wan's "You were my brother" statement), but not enough to highlight just how personal the duel was.

It also suffered from being interspersed with the Yoda-Palpatine duel (which, IMO, was pitch-perfect in its end-of-the-world tone inside the Senate Chambers - it just needed to stand on its own, rather than being a B-plot to the Anakin-Obi-Wan duel).
 
The Obi-Wan-Anakin duel was, IMO, clearly lacking ... if not banter, then verbal sparring. There was some of it (mostly at the end, with Obi-Wan's "You were my brother" statement), but not enough to highlight just how personal the duel was.

It also suffered from being interspersed with the Yoda-Palpatine duel (which, IMO, was pitch-perfect in its end-of-the-world tone inside the Senate Chambers - it just needed to stand on its own, rather than being a B-plot to the Anakin-Obi-Wan duel).

Why do they need verbal sparring? the Ren/Rey had very little in the way of verbal sparring. If a persona is fighting for their life they always have time for Spider-M<n styled one liners.
 
Considering the length of the duel, and the personal history between Anakin and Obi-Wan, I'd say more lines of dialogue between them is warranted (e.g. Luke-Vader in ROTJ). Rey and Ren, on the other hand, hardly know each other, so it makes sense for there to be limited dialogue between the two. And yet, it's Ren's taunts which help trigger Rey's acceptance of the Force. So even there, the dialogue served a greater overall narrative purpose than it did in ROTS.
 
Considering the length of the duel, and the personal history between Anakin and Obi-Wan, I'd say more lines of dialogue between them is warranted (e.g. Luke-Vader in ROTJ). Rey and Ren, on the other hand, hardly know each other, so it makes sense for there to be limited dialogue between the two. And yet, it's Ren's taunts which help trigger Rey's acceptance of the Force. So even there, the dialogue served a greater overall narrative purpose than it did in ROTS.

Obi-Wan and Anakin had said all that needed to be said, all that was left was the duel. As Vader said in ANH, "The circle is now complete." Obi-Wan truely believed there was no way for Anakin at that point words would be useless I would think.

Vader taunted Luke in TESB in order to try and turn him ot the dark side. All Re was trying to was bully Rey and failed, he thought he was dealing with a more or less defenseless girl.

As for the length of the duel, it was meant to have been the last ever Star Wars movie, so the final duel would have to be epic in nature.
 
As for the length of the duel, it was meant to have been the last ever Star Wars movie, so the final duel would have to be epic in nature.
Which, following the precedent of ROTJ, is why it needed more dialogue to personalize the duel, to add in something akin to the psychological sparring that Luke and Vader engaged in. Honestly, that's why the ROTJ duel, as simplistic as the saber-clashes were, is so much more emotionally riveting than the ROTS duel (which is, otherwise, more visually and kinetically intense). Had ROTS interspersed some more dialogue, to drive home the "brother against brother" nature of the conflict during the duel (and not just in its final moments), it would have been much more epic.

In contrast, the Rey-Ren duel didn't need as much dialogue because the characters had (relatively speaking) much less history. Sure, Rey hated Ren. And Ren talked a lot when he thought he had the advantage. But their duel was less about resolving long-standing conflicts (e.g. Luke-Vader & Anakin-Obi-Wan) and more about short-term goals (Rey surviving, Ren capturing Rey).
 
What I really like about the PT duels is that their length makes it more shocking when they finally land their blow with the lightsaber, and most of them end really violently. Like the fight with Dooku it's very flashy then all of a sudden he gets both his arms chopped off, kind of disturbing actually.

To me it makes the lightsaber duels seem even more deadly, they're so precise in combat that it looks choreographed and seems to go on quite a long time, but they're one missed step away from being chopped in half. It seemed like you could effortlessly hack off limbs once you get the blade into the right position. I hope we get some of that feeling in the next couple movies.
 
sparring? the Ren/Rey had very little in the way of verbal sparring.

Ah, screw it, I'll say it. :p
It didn't need much verbal sparring because Daisy Ridley knows how to act. You can see the feelings and emotions in her face. It makes you care about her and experience the moment with her. Abrams apparently knows how to work with actors while Lucas can't even get a decent performance out of actors who clearly can act for other directors (McGregor, Neeson, Portman). And even when they tried, the scenes got dragged down by Hayden Christensen who couldn't act his way out of a wet paper bag. Has anybody really felt compassion for him at any point of the story? Compare Christensen's acting to Ridley's and weep. :p

Mace Windu's eye-rolling anyone? ;)
 
sparring? the Ren/Rey had very little in the way of verbal sparring.

Ah, screw it, I'll say it. :p
It didn't need much verbal sparring because Daisy Ridley knows how to act. You can see the feelings and emotions in her face. It makes you care about her and experience the moment with her. Abrams apparently knows how to work with actors while Lucas can't even get a decent performance out of actors who clearly can act for other directors (McGregor, Neeson, Portman). And even when they tried, the scenes got dragged down by Hayden Christensen who couldn't act his way out of a wet paper bag. Has anybody really felt compassion for him at any point of the story? Compare Christensen's acting to Ridley's and weep. :p

Mace Windu's eye-rolling anyone? ;)

Obi-Wan was very emotional after Maul killed Qui-Gon, check out Mace Windu's anger during his duel with Palpatine and Anakin's indecision to take Dooku's life.
 
I don't think Christensen was that bad an actor. He did a good job in the film Shattered Glass. In the OT I chalk it up more to Lucas's direction. I thought Hayden worked well when it came time for Anakin to go dark. To me, Lucas didn't know how to transition Anakin from hero to villain in a good way, and I wish he had perhaps let Christensen do more of his own thing with the role.

I felt compassion for him in AOTC when he went in search of Shmi, and his last scenes with her. I thought that was well done.

While I do think the ROTS Anakin-Obi-Wan duel went on too long, there was an emotional aspect there, perhaps not enough during the actual fight itself (where Lucas was focused on dazzling us). However, both said their piece in the run-up the fight and then at the end of the fight.
 
The thing about the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel is that long time fans knew how it would turn out and we knew that Obi-Wan was there to take out Anakin. Obi-Wan didn't want to fight Anakin he saw him as his son, just as Anakin saw Obi-Wan as his father. Obi-Wan was shocked that Anakin lead teh attack on the temple and killed younglings, but he knew Anakin had to stopped. More words would've just gotten in the way IMO.

Han's attempt to turn Kylo failed as it appear taht Luke alos failed with Kylo. We know that Anakin was redeemed I guess we'll have to wait and see if Kylo can be redeemed or if he should be. Somehow though I doubt if Kylo will suvive the trilogy.
 
The duels in the prequel trilogy are very much like Hong Kong wuxia cinema. And the fight scenes in wuxia movies are way more technically impressive than anything that Hollywood has done, ever.

So I was glad to see something like that in Star Wars. Master warriors who are in tune with a universal magical energy field like "The Force" should appear virtually superhuman to the rest of us.

Kor
 
I don't think Christensen was that bad an actor. He did a good job in the film Shattered Glass. In the OT I chalk it up more to Lucas's direction. I thought Hayden worked well when it came time for Anakin to go dark. To me, Lucas didn't know how to transition Anakin from hero to villain in a good way, and I wish he had perhaps let Christensen do more of his own thing with the role.

Natalie Portman, Ewan McGregor, Keira Knightley, Samuel L. Jackson, Liam Neeson all great actors and all horrible in the PT so, yeah, it's hard to completely blame Christensen for his performance as Anakin but, damn, did he come across as a whiny, petulant, little bitch over the course of the movies.
 
Eh I don't get the whiny thing, he was dealing with the death of his mother, being held back by useless Jedi constantly doubting him and offering no help, and then trying to keep his wife from dying. I thought it was a good story on how he turned to the dark side, and mirrors how Luke almost turns when Vader threatens Leia in Return of the Jedi.
 
Listening to Lucas on the BD special features disks, I get the impression he didn't want to make the prequel actors give the performance he wanted from them - but allowed them the freedom to decide for themselves how the characters should be performed.

Doing Wars the way he wanted it done and not being beholden to a studios do/don't do list was a huge factor in how the Original film got made. So I can see him thinking - these people are already professionals and do not need me to tell them how to apply their skills. A noble idea but obviously a big mistake.
 
An old interview with Carrie Fisher mentions that Lucas tends to now say anything when the performance is fine, but the actors don't know if they are doing alright. Harrison Ford had worked with Lucas before and was able to tell Fisher how it was so she adapted. The likes of Portman wouldn't have that advise...plus a lot of green screens to have to imagine what they are reacting at. Even in one of the behind the scenes takes for AOTC, she starts to crackup because she thinks Lucas is making fun of her with a treadmill of blue, and blue set, and a blue screen, while only getting directions to duck, run, dodge. It looks and probably felt silly doing it. Though Lucas was right that it looks better on screen when Padme is running through the assembly plant with skill.
 
Eh I don't get the whiny thing, he was dealing with the death of his mother, being held back by useless Jedi constantly doubting him and offering no help, and then trying to keep his wife from dying. I thought it was a good story on how he turned to the dark side, and mirrors how Luke almost turns when Vader threatens Leia in Return of the Jedi.

Yeah I mean, Anakin was dealing with a lot of issues. He still had lingering feelings and guilt about leaving his mother behind on Tatoonine. He had to deal with whatever culture shock of moving from a backwater planet to the capital of the Republic. He was being trained by a guy who was doing it out of obligation for his dead master and not out of genuine concern-though that changed over time. Anakin also had to contend with the suspicions of the Jedi Council. They openly rejected him at first.

And he had to contend with the whole label of The Chosen One. And he was likely the best student in class, he wanted to learn and do things faster than everyone else because he could but he was being told to hold back, to wait, by people who didn't have his raw power.

Add to that the ascetic, celibate life of a Jedi mixing with his teenage hormones. It was a very volatile, toxic mix.

He was arrogant, he felt entitled, but the Jedi telling him he's the Chosen One didn't help that at all. That's something they should've kept to themselves.
 
The Atlantic had a great piece on Rey here. Some highlights:

The Atlantic said:
Would the film find a way to update Leia’s (in)famous bikini? Would the franchise, under J.J. Abrams, give audiences a female character they can finally feel un-weird about liking?—got its answer. Rey, the tantalizingly de-surnamed woman played by the Hollywood newcomer Daisy Ridley, may have been dubbed “Star Wars’s first female protagonist,” but that isn’t strictly correct: The franchise has had its Leias and its Padmes. What Rey is, however, is Star Wars’s first feminist protagonist. No distressing damsel, she’s instead a fighter and a survivor and a nurturer and an all-around badass. She may fit the trope-happy cliches of Hollywood lady-ry—the “empowered woman,” the Strong Female Lead—but she’s also something both simpler and more meaningful: a fully realized character. Rey is a woman who refuses to be defined as one.

[...]

Finn, in particular, repeatedly attempts to inject chivalry into situations where chivalry is drastically out of place. During a fight the pair has against the First Order troopers, he runs over to Rey in an attempt to rescue her—only to realize that her attackers have already been neatly dispatched with. When Finn grabs her hand as they flee, she snaps, “I know how to run without you holding my hand.”

[...]

They’re good jokes, but also loaded ones. Rey, after all, has been surviving all this time not just without her family—they left Jakku years ago, and she’s waiting for them to return—but also without, for the most part, a society. And extreme self-sufficiency has a way of putting social conventions into relief. The broader joke embedded in all these small ones is that all the stuff that makes for chivalry (and inequalities, and patriarchy, and if you stretch things only a teeny bit, maybe even gender itself) is itself extremely contingent. It would never occur to Rey that she would be in need of chivalry’s attentions. She has neither the luxury nor the burden of being a damsel in distress; she’s too busy surviving. She fights alongside men and women and droids, superficial matters of identity—clothing, appearance, even gender—all subsumed under bigger questions that come down to, basically: “Can you fight?”

And that, in its way, is the point! Star Wars heroines will always, on some level, reflect the feminism of their times (though, granted, the sample set here is pretty much three). Leia, clad alternately in a flowing muumuu and a metal bikini, reflected the social upheavals of the women’s movement. She fought and she fawned. Padme, clad in thick robes and a mid-riff bearing white shirt, did pretty much the same thing. She embodied an era that wasn’t quite sure whether feminism and femininity could peacefully co-exist.

Previous Star Wars films went out of their way to empower their ladycharacters, to make them strong and self-sufficient and generally badass. They, like Rey, know their way around a blaster. And yet: They are also damsely! And pretty awkwardly needy! They operate at extremes, vacillating between strength and helplessness, between objectification and empowerment. They spend very little time in the middle. It’s no accident that one of the lines that’s endured from the original trilogy is Leia’s “Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You’re my only hope.” It’s also no accident that Padme, a queen and a senator, has been dubbed one of “Hollywood’s 5 Saddest Attempts at Feminism.”

Rey, however, is a character for a time that is coming to a new peace with feminism. A time that is replacing feminism-as-a-movement with feminism-as-a-way-of-life. Rey’s feminism does not protest too much. It is not insistent; it is not obvious. It is, instead, that most powerful of things: simply there. Rey, tellingly, is not an archetype, but rather a fully realized character, subtle and nuanced and human. She, as a character, luxuriates in her own subjectivity.

At one point in The Force Awakens, in full fan-service dudgeon, Han mentions the Force: “a magical power holding together Good and Evil, the darkness and the light.” You could say something similar about the feminism of 2015: It gets much of its power from tension, from opposing ideas that feed off of each other, productively. It embraces the notion that genders can be different, but still equal. That women can be empowered, and yet subject to forces beyond their control. The Force Awakens’s treatment of its Strong Female Lead reflects that nuance. Rey is beautiful, but that isn’t fully the point. She is strong and skilled—but that, too, isn’t the point. She is a good person:

That, ultimately, is the point. “I hope Rey will be something of a girl power figure,” Ridley has said of her character. She added: “She’s brave and she’s vulnerable and she’s so nuanced ... She doesn’t have to be one thing to embody a woman in a film. It just so happens she’s a woman, but she transcends gender. She’s going to speak to men and women.”

She's a real character. She is, as the article points out, subtle, nuanced, and human. She is a fully-fledged character and not an archetype. And as a woman it's so damn refreshing to see a character like that in a franchise as huge as Star Wars.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top