Rey and the sad devolution of the female character

[fireproof78]

Both the T-16 Skyhopper and X-Wing were designed by the Incom Corporation. So it can be implied that they would have similar controls. However, Luke wasn't really much of an ace pilot anyway. Biggs probably talked him up a lot so the Red Leader would let him help out during the Death Star battle. I mean even Red Leader had to tell Luke to pull up after he destroyed one of the laser towers. Then in ESB he wrecks his Snowspeeder and X-Wing. I think the only ship he managed to pilot in the OT that didn't get messed up was the Imperial Shuttle he took at the end of ROTJ.

Technically the X-Wing he flew from Tatooine and then to Dagobah and then to the Rebel Fleet made it.

A New Hope doesn't actually mark out Luke as an ace pilot. Without Wedge or Han, he'd be dead anyway, and he happened to luck-out with the fact that the Death Star Trench Run was something he did probably every weekend on Tatooine. Certainly with more experience and honing his Force abilities during battles and missions between ANH and TESB he became competent enough to lead Rogue Squadron.

A couple of things that stand out-one, there is no indication in the film that the T-16 and the X-Wing are the same control set up, so it comes across as leap within the context of the film.

Secondly, I'm not claiming Luke as an ace. I am noting that there is a difference between civilian flying in atmosphere vs. flying in a military squadron, against trained combat pilots, and being expected to survive. That's a leap of logic that the film gets away with.

Finally, if Luke is not the ace pilot, then why is Biggs and Wedge relegated to wingmen and targets/distractions for Luke? Wouldn't make more sense for Biggs to take the lead on the last attack run if he is the more experienced pilot in the Rebellion?

The overall point is the latitude given to Luke and even Anakin is not given to Rey even though Luke and Anakin demonstrate similar leaps in skill.

 

[Ithekro]

If Rebel squadrons follow standard 12 plane concepts, Luke is Red 5, thus he's be the lead of the second flight of four fighters. Though that means that Wedge (Red 2) should be Red Leader's wingman.

 

[Solariabsg25]

There is another possibility. That "something", some kind of feeling or instinct in Red leader led him to have a greater trust in Luke. Certainly in a universe with The Force, something akin to a gut-instinct could be common for those who may be slightly Force-sensitive. And Vader's comment of "The Force is strong in this one" doesn't preclude the fact that he also detected The Force in other pilots he faced, just not that strongly.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Independence Day had a Randy Quaid going from crop duster to fighter jet. Although think it implied he had prior experience back in Vietnam? Experience was 25-30 years out of date, but may be more relevant

In the original ending, the military guys laughed him off, then he shows up at the end in his crop duster with a big bomb strapped to it. That's the reason why, in the final film, his fighter jet seems to be taking such a leisurely path to the alien ship. The fx people used the same plate shot and just swapped out the plane model.

Same here. I quite like Rey. She's my favorite of the new characters.

Agreed. I still think she tilts towards some Mary Sueish tendencies but it took me several viewings to even pick up on that. It's less a fault of the character than of Abrams' cliche writing tendencies.

I also want her and Finn to hook up. None of this Poe/Finn nonsense.

Agreed. While there's nothing to rule out Poe's heteroflexibility, I can't look at Finn's puppy crush on Rey and see anything but a hopelessly straight man.

Ford said it wasn't him who suggested Han's death for TFA. They came up with it on their own.

I dunno. He may not have asked but, much like Leonard Nimoy, years of trying to distance himself from the character meant that he would inevitably die. It just wouldn't occur to anyone to keep him alive.

I don't mind the deaths of Han or Luke but what bugs me is that we never got to see them together again.

 

[RandyS]

I don't mind the deaths of Han or Luke but what bugs me is that we never got to see them together again.

Yep. Another reason to hate those stupid pointless deaths.

 

[Tuskin38]

Yep. Another reason to hate those stupid pointless deaths.

They were not pointless, they were strong character moments.

 

[RandyS]

They were not pointless, they were strong character moments.

Death is not a strong character moment. It is the weakest one. Not to mention a final one, and therefore pointless.

 

[fireproof78]

Death is not a strong character moment. It is the weakest one. Not to mention a final one, and therefore pointless.

There is a whole body of literature that would disagree with you. Largely final stands in films, especially in Star Wars. I suppose Obi-Wan's death was also meaningless?

 

[Tuskin38]

Death is not a strong character moment. It is the weakest one. Not to mention a final one, and therefore pointless.

Han’s death effected Rey, Leia, Ben, Chewie and Luke.

That’s pretty strong.

Obi-Wan’s death effected Luke.

 

[USS Firefly]

There is a whole body of literature that would disagree with you. Largely final stands in films, especially in Star Wars. I suppose Obi-Wan's death was also meaningless?

For me his death was unexpected.
But why have in almost every new Star Wars movie have a mentor/older person have to die?
It looks like that if you are old in the SW movies you have to die

 

[fireproof78]

Han’s death effected Rey, Leia, Ben, Chewie and Luke.

That’s pretty strong.

Obi-Wan’s death effected Luke.

Exactly. How much literature and film has been written around a character's death? How many "last stands" have been presented for the audience to cheer on the hero, to recognize their strength in the face of overwhelming odds. I wonder if Spock's death was equally as meaningless?

For me his death was unexpected.
But why have in almost every new Star Wars movie have a mentor/older person have to die?
It looks like that if you are old in the SW movies you have to die

That's not new to Star Wars or literature.

Also, whether it was unexpected or not, did it have meaning?

 

[Gaith]

He may not have asked but, much like Leonard Nimoy, years of trying to distance himself from the character meant that he would inevitably die. It just wouldn't occur to anyone to keep him alive.

As I understood it, Ford agreed to do one more Star Wars if Disney would give him one more Indiana Jones before that inevitable reboot. So while he may not have specifically asked for Han to die in Ep. 7, if he was only willing to do one movie, it's not as though he left the writers with much choice.

 

[USS Firefly]

Also, whether it was unexpected or not, did it have meaning?

Every death has a more or less meaning.
The death of Qui Gon Jinn shocked me the most because it went so quick.
The death of Han didn't do me much because it was so predictable

 

[fireproof78]

Every death has a more or less meaning.
The death of Qui Gon Jinn shocked me the most because it went so quick.
The death of Han didn't do me much because it was so predictable

Then I cannot give meaning to it for you. Just because something is predictable doesn't rob it of meaning.

 

[Tuskin38]

I didn’t find Han’s death predictable at all.

Felt like the least safe option they couldn’t have done when reviving the series, so I didn’t think it would happen.

I was sadly spoiled it by a sad internet troll.

 

[fireproof78]

I didn’t find Han’s death predictable at all.

Felt like the least safe option they couldn’t have done when reviving the series, so I didn’t think it would happen.

I was sadly spoiled it by a sad internet troll.

I don't care whether it is predictable or not, or if I expected it. It still gets me when it happens.

 

[RandyS]

Exactly. How much literature and film has been written around a character's death? How many "last stands" have been presented for the audience to cheer on the hero, to recognize their strength in the face of overwhelming odds. I wonder if Spock's death was equally as meaningless?

He was brought back in the very next movie so it was fine.

You have never lost somebody you loved to death have you? I have. Almost all of them in fact. It doesn't matter wiether the death if fictional or real. It is always pointless.

 

[fireproof78]

He was brought back in the very next movie so it was fine.

You have never lost somebody you loved to death have you? I have. Almost all of them in fact. It doesn't matter wiether the death if fictional or real. It is always pointless.

That is a bit of an assumption, is it not? Yes, I have lost loved ones to death and watched one die.

But, was his death pointless in the original film? That's the question. Fiction has always used a character's death as part of their story, how they die, or how they make their last stand. Same thing with Spock. Just because we know the outcome doesn't somehow mitigate the fact that they still died. At least, not to me. If death is meaningless, then it must be categorically meaningless, regardless of the circumstance or whether they come back.

ETA: Less I come across as insensitive, I recognize that your experience of death is not the same as mine. But, personally, death in fiction serves a different purpose than death in real life. Now, if I had my way, I would write fiction in which everyone lives (and am working towards that end) but that isn't how fiction has been used in the past, Star Wars included. Now, personal interpretation will vary, but I don't think the writers meant for it to be regarded as "pointless."

 

[Ithekro]

Death in story and death in reality depend greatly on context. Most people die in pointless ways. Death of old age, disease, accidents, or sometimes even straight up murder. Those that die well are those whose deaths made on impact on a greater scope because of their deaths (not the individuals that made an impact in life and thus are remembered well at their deaths). The pilots and gunners of Torpedo Eight at the Battle of Midway could be considered a pointless death if the events had happened differently. But because of their deaths, the Japanese fighter cover was at low altitude and thus when the American dive bomber squadrons arrived, they had a basically unchallenged drop on the Japanese carrier forces and destroyed three carriers in the span of minutes. Without Torpedo Eight's death, that wouldn't have happened. There are other deaths, either in wars, but also at disasters where one person, or a group of people give their lives so that others might live. Those that survived because of them would not call their deaths pointless.

In fiction, the story can be crafted so that the character's death has an impact on other characters. Leading them into other paths, improving their resolve, or crippling someone else's resolve. In the case of Han Solo, his death impacted three people immediately (Rey, Chewbacca, and Ben Solo....it didn't impact Finn as much), and it impacted on Leia and Luke as well and how they resolved to do things going forwards. His death had a point in diminishing Ben Solo's connection to the Dark Side. It built up Rey's anger and resolve for direct action. And it upset Chewbacca to great levels of anger that not only did to shoot Ben Solo (an action he probably wouldn't have done prior to that moment....Ben would be considered family to Chewie), and he blew up the bombs setting off events to tend Starkiller Base. Leia realized that Ben was gone, as did Luke later. Han's death rattled Luke a bit, but that with other things lead him to make his own version of a last stand, with Han as part of the context. Both with his goodbye to Leia, and in his confrontation with Ben Solo. Han's death always shapes the dialogue between Rey and Ben.

 

[HugeLobes]

Han's death wasn't pointless. That said, it did feel like a watered down version of Obi-Wan's death, especially since so much of ANH had been carried over to TFA.

Also, I couldn't help thinking Harrison just didn't want to be in Star Wars anymore, and that slightly soured the impact.