Rey and the sad devolution of the female character

[fireproof78]

Whenever Rey or her friends take a less-than-entirely-wise course, however, things seem to work out just fine... as seen in the conclusion of TLJ, where everyone is all smiles and positivity, despite just witnessing the deaths of nearly all their comrades.

I suppose your definition of fine and mine will vary. Rey appears visibly shaken, and having to come to grips with proceeding (apparently without) Luke, and the realization that her belief in Ben was indeed foolish.

Rey has a terrific actress and a lot of potential, but TFA and TLJ are bad to mediocre OT rehashes more interested in mystery boxes and then subverting mystery boxes than crafting compelling drama.

Agree to disagree on this point. These films see far more interested in the inner workings of the characters and going in to their personal struggles and demons that always having huge action set pieces. The effectiveness will vary from person to person.

said flaw should have dramatic story consequences, and she should question herself over her actions and failings.

I disagree on this. Said flaw should have personal consequences that impact her choices and actions that then impact the story. And, I see Rey as having that personal impact, as highlighted above,

 

[Gaith]

Because if these supposed words of wisdom were truly the case, than no one would ever have brought a blue shirt, ugly-ass bowl-cut wig, and some pointy ears.

Cos Star Trek’s hit rate for ‘good’ (and no, I won’t include ‘mediocre’ or ‘not bad’) is, what...something like 25%?

Sure, but that 25% was enough. I agree that if all of TOS was bad, Spock would have been forgotten long ago. Meanwhile, the Sequel Trilogy is batting 0/2, or 0%... IMHO.

 

[Trekkin]

I have no interest in going over your opinions on the Star Wars movies again. But the first episodes anyone saw of TOS was Man Trap and Charlie X.

The first is merely average, and Spock is barely in the latter. So, nope. Still don’t buy it. Especially as it only gets worse if you factor in the first two movies.

(Come at me TMP lovers.)

Aso, this approach absolutely fucks the entire TNG cast. Actually, it screws nearly all of the franchise. Star Trek has a ‘getting two genuinely good episodes in a row’ problem.

I’ve also got issues with ‘characters’ apparently being seperate from ‘story.’ That’s like saying ‘the flour can only be as good as the cake batter.’

 

[JD]

I'm a bit surprised to see that attitude towards Star Trek coming from someone on a Star Trek message board.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm a bit surprised to see that attitude towards Star Trek coming from someone on a Star Trek message board.

Which attitude?

 

[fireproof78]

I'm a bit surprised to see that attitude towards Star Trek coming from someone on a Star Trek message board.

Not everyone likes everything about Star Trek. Any more than all Star Wars materials are regarded the same.

 

[Gaith]

I have no interest in going over your opinions on the Star Wars movies again. But the first episodes anyone saw of TOS was Man Trap and Charlie X.

So? Those aren't the stories people remember. They remember the great ones. "Amok Time", "Mirror, Mirror," "The Wrath of Khan"...

Also, an important thing to keep in mind is that, when it comes to characters, Iconic ≠ Great. Cupid - y'know, the baby with the bow and heart-shaped arrow - is without doubt an iconic character in pop culture, but is he a great one? Not that I know of. Of course, characters can be iconic and great - and, thanks to his distinctive look, behavior, and primary actor, Spock, whether or not one considers him great, is certainly iconic.

Now, given that she's the star of the sequel trilogy, with the mammoth Disney and Star Wars machines behind her, Rey (as well as Finn, Kylo, etc.), is pretty much iconic by default. Hell, every nerd knows Captain Phasma's name; she's iconic, too, even though there's exactly nothing to her character in TFA/TLJ. Same goes for Snoke. Doesn't necessarily make any of 'em great, though.

Aso, this approach absolutely fucks the entire TNG cast. Actually, it screws nearly all of the franchise. Star Trek has a ‘getting two genuinely good episodes in a row’ problem.

Who said anything about good stories needing to be consecutive? You seem to be lashing out willy-nilly here.

I’ve also got issues with ‘characters’ apparently being seperate from ‘story.’ That’s like saying ‘the flour can only be as good as the cake batter.’

You do seem to have issues with that, because I'm arguing characters aren't separate from their stories. You can put the world's finest flour in some cookie dough, but if the dough's eggs were bad, and the resulting cookies therefore also bad, does it really make sense to single out the flour as a strong point? If one is trying to score points on identity politics, maybe.

I like Rey as a character, and would like to see her character become great by being in a great story. But I certainly haven't seen that yet.

 

[Trekkin]

Cupod. Iconic, but is he a great one?

Considering it’s been centuries, and we still know and retell the Cupid and Psyche story alone...yeah? It must enthrall and interest some people.

The Greek’s certainly thought so. I mean, they only considered it part of the foundations for life itself. They apparently liked him for more than his looks.

So? Those aren't the stories people remember. They remember the great ones. "Amok Time", "Mirror, Mirror," "The Wrath of Khan"...

Riiiiight.

The pop cultural impact of TOS showing that’s a blatant lie aside, we have an entire board here that suggests otherwise.

We discuss the ‘bad’ in excruciating detail. Analyse it. Quote it. The works. We forget nothing, yet here we are. Shaving our eyebrows and deluding ourselves that we’re the logical and unemotional ones in the conversation.

Also, since we brought the subject up: Amok Time isn’t good. It’s just iconic.

Who said anything about good stories needing to be consecutive?

Absolutely no one. I’ve got no idea what your talking about.

You do seem to have issues with that, because I'm arguing characters aren't separate from their stories.

Yeah. Ya kinda did,

Suggesting that characters are reliant on the story, seperates them.

You can put the world's finest flour in some cookie dough, but if the dough's eggs were bad, and the resulting cookies therefore also bad,

You can totally get good-ass cookies with bad eggs. Depends on how much eggs you use. Or what ‘bad’ eggs entails.

Or, hell...the cookies you’re making. I’ve had entire dishes made out of ‘bad’ eggs. As someone who doesn’t like eggs, it was admittedly wasted on me. But if people didn’t see quality in those old stinky eggs, then they wouldn’t make ‘em.

does it really make sense to single out the flour as a strong point? If one is trying to score points on identity politics, maybe .

As a person who cooks, yeah. You kinda do pay attention to every individual element. I mean, in the worst case, it’ll help the doctors narrow what type of food poisoning you may have picked up. More seriously, flour tends to impact on taste or texture. Which can save a dish that’s deficient in other areas.

More to the point, apparently the only reason people will single out ANH’s pacing and (mostly) effects as some of the elements that elevate it above mediocrity, is a need to score ‘identity politics points.’ Because why else would you single these things out from the greater story?

That’ll be news to film critics, I suppose. If you do the opposite, and criticise a movies characters specifically, are you also playing the identity politics game?

 

[Guy Gardener]

I went looking for stationary in a big box store today.

Lots of Rey branded folders, note books and coloured pencils.

Merch is eternal.

 

[JD]

Which attitude?

Not everyone likes everything about Star Trek. Any more than all Star Wars materials are regarded the same.

Of course. I just seemed to me that she has more of a negative view of the franchise overall than I would expect to see from someone who cares enough about it to come to a place like this.

 

[fireproof78]

Of course. I just seemed to me that she has more of a negative view of the franchise overall than I would expect to see from someone who cares enough about it to come to a place like this.

It struck me as more a remark upon how quickly we are to judge a character's staying power and demonstrating in other franchises if the same standard were applied Spock would not be as popular as he is today. @Hela can correct me but that was my understanding, not disparaging Star Trek in general.

Also, people come to forums for a wide variety of reasons. Being a Trek fan is not a prerequisite.

 

[Trekkin]

Of course. I just seemed to me that she has more of a negative view of the franchise overall than I would expect to see from someone who cares enough about it to come to a place like this.

Dude. I am currently rewatching Masters of the Universe for probably the twentieth time...

On a Bluray...

That I brought to upgrade from my DVD...

Which I also kept, because it has unique special features on it. Because they are important.

What I’m getting at, is my tastes (and fandoms) are pretty darn broad. And evidently, in no way restricted to stuff that I (or anyone else) would deem to be flawless works of great art.

Although obviously, anything I happen to like is ‘good.’ I mean, that’s just science.

It struck me as more a remark upon how quickly we are to judge a character's staying power and demonstrating in other franchises if the same standard were applied Spock would not be as popular as he is today. @Hela can correct me but that was my understanding, not disparaging Star Trek in general.

Also, people come to forums for a wide variety of reasons. Being a Trek fan is not a prerequisite.

More using Spock as an example of how Gaith’s particular standard falls down.

After all, if I think Trek’s plots are frequently flimsy, the dialogue wooden, the pacing humdrum, the SFX dated etc etc etc...what could keep bring me back? Why did I cry at the end of TWOK, despite the entire scenario being extremely contrived, ass-pully, and it’s wrap-up of the intended theme being tenuous?

(That...wasn’t a recreation of the Kobiyashi Maru’s ‘no win’ scenario, Spock. ‘Sacrificing my life to save everyone else’ is taking third option. The other two being ‘everyone dies with a bit of dignity’ and ‘everyone dies whilst wetting their pants in terror.’ You kinda vindicated Kirk’s view that he’ll always have some sort of out, ya dumbbutt.)

Might it be that the quality of the characters is the primary draw, and they can stand on their own seperate from all the chafe?

 

[fireproof78]

Might it be that the quality of the characters is the primary draw, and they can stand on their own seperate from all the chafe?

Indeed. In my opinion Rey stands out as a character who is enjoyable, sympathetic and a heroine who faces down significant trauma experiences.

I might identify more with Luke but Rey is the type of character that keeps me coming back.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

TFA and TLJ are bad to mediocre OT rehashes more interested in mystery boxes and then subverting mystery boxes than crafting compelling drama.

Agreed. The films barely serve a purpose to what Lucas established as the OT or PT's greater message.

 

[USS Firefly]

Agreed. The films barely serve a purpose to what Lucas established as the OT or PT's greater message.

I agree, i still haven't watch TLJ a second time.

 

[Ithekro]

I agree, i still haven't watch TLJ a second time.

Probably should though. I've found that when watching something a second time you can notice things you missed the first time because you didn't know the story. Also you can see motivation setups you could miss watching only once.

 

[USS Firefly]

Probably should though. I've found that when watching something a second time you can notice things you missed the first time because you didn't know the story. Also you can see motivation setups you could miss watching only once.

I will watch the ST when EP9 will be available on Netflix or tv.
And maybe I change my opinion about Rey, but I think I stay disappointed about the storyline of Luke and the movie.

 

[JD]

Episode IX is never going to be available streaming on Netflix, if that's what you mean. Once Disney+ starts later this year it will be the only place with free streaming of all of the Disney, Marvel, and Lucasfilm movies and TV shows. I believe Netflix will be able to keep the shows they made up, but there will not be any new stuff, and all of the old stuff that they weren't involved with is going to be pulled.

 

[Gaith]

I have no interest in going over your opinions on the Star Wars movies again.

So, you don't want to debate the only two stories a character appears in while discussing said character...

"I'm arguing characters aren't separate from their stories."
Yeah. Ya kinda did,
Suggesting that characters are reliant on the story, seperates them.

And then you say I'm arguing the exact opposite of what I'm arguing. This is fun.

If you do the opposite, and criticise a movies characters specifically, are you also playing the identity politics game?

Maybe? Good thing I'm not doing that, though. I'm calling TFA and TLJ mediocre flicks, with consequently mediocre (so far) characters.

(No, Spock wasn't a great character from the day "The Man Trap" and "Charlie X" aired. He became great through appearing in the great stories (and more) already mentioned above. Rey and the other ST characters may significantly improve is Ep. IX is any good. We'll see.)

After all, if I think Trek’s plots are frequently flimsy, the dialogue wooden, the pacing humdrum, the SFX dated etc etc etc...what could keep bring me back? Why did I cry at the end of TWOK, despite the entire scenario being extremely contrived, ass-pully, and it’s wrap-up of the intended theme being tenuous?

Maybe because, as the great majority of geekdom believes, TWOK really is a much better story than you seem to be giving it credit for?

(And what the heck does "dated SFX" have to do with the quality of the storytelling? Excellent CG, beautiful cinematography, and top-notch production quality didn't make TFA/TLJ one iota less uninspired and derivative.)

 

[Trekkin]

I wrote that post on Monday dude.

It’s now Thursday. The moment is gone!

Episode IX is never going to be available streaming on Netflix, if that's what you mean. Once Disney+ starts later this year it will be the only place with free streaming of all of the Disney, Marvel, and Lucasfilm movies and TV shows. I believe Netflix will be able to keep the shows they made up, but there will not be any new stuff, and all of the old stuff that they weren't involved with is going to be pulled.

The steady axing of the Netflix shows (or in Defenders case, utter silence) suggests it might not even be that simple. If people start fine-reading contracts, who knows what messes we’ll start seeing in the next few years?

Remember when streaming was meant to make physical home-media obsolete?

Welp, the natural evolution of these business has only served to make me increasingly appreciative of my ever-growing VHS/Disc Hoard Collection. So suck on that Mum, I mean... naysayers!