Rey and the sad devolution of the female character

[LJones41]

Luke fit the idea of the "Chosen One" (I'm not a fan of that idea, in Star Wars, or most fiction, it just feels trite) more than Vader (I loved the conversation in ROTS among the Jedi about misreading the Chosen One prophecy).

How does Luke fit the idea of "the Chosen One"?

It’s still not too late for Asoka to be Yoda’s “there is another”.

God, I hope it is.

There is the family you are related to and the family you chose to include. One thing we see all of the Skywalkers do with Rey, in particular, is chose to include her in their family, either Han (Skywalker by marriage) wanting her on his crew, Luke willing to train her at least a little, or Leia's connection with her at the end of TFA.

Let's not be so black and white in the "Skywalker Family Saga" bit, when family can have multiple meanings to people, and Rey's journey is finding her place, finding her new family to replace those who are "not coming back."

I can't really buy this. If Rey or Finn, for that matter, isn't a Skywalker, then I cannot regard the Sequel Trilogy as part of the Skywalker Family saga. Period. And if I'm being too "black and white" then so be it.

 

[Jayson1]

Why does there always half to be a 'chosen one?" Can't someone just be good at their job and have some skills?


Jason

 

[fireproof78]

Why does there always half to be a 'chosen one?" Can't someone just be good at their job and have some skills?


Jason

Welcome to the reason I like Rey.

I can't really buy this. If Rey or Finn, for that matter, isn't a Skywalker, then I cannot regard the Sequel Trilogy as part of the Skywalker Family saga. Period. And if I'm being too "black and white" then so be it.

With respect, that is too black and white. Though, I doubtful that even if they were Skywalkers the ST would some how become better regarded, so its a rather mute point.

 

[BillJ]

I can't really buy this. If Rey or Finn, for that matter, isn't a Skywalker, then I cannot regard the Sequel Trilogy as part of the Skywalker Family saga. Period. And if I'm being too "black and white" then so be it.

Um, Ben Solo is a Skywalker. So it would be part of the Skywalker family saga...

 

[fireproof78]

Um, Ben Solo is a Skywalker. So it would be part of the Skywalker family saga...

He's not a good guy though so obviously he is no longer a Skywalker, and clearly these films cannot be part of the Skywalker family saga, and therefor must be rejected from canon, and Disney must higher Lucas back in order to make the appropriate Star Wars Sequel Trilogy in which Lucas' ideas of Thrawn and Mara Jade and the New Jedi Order can come to fruition!

It's just logic!

 

[Kor]

I like Rey's earnestness, good-naturedness, and lack of whiny, touchy-feely, passive-aggressive, perpetually adolescent post-modern Emo angst that tends to define so many characters in contemporary TV and movies.

Kylo, on the other hand...

Kor

 

[fireproof78]

I like Rey's earnestness, good-naturedness, and lack of whiny, touchy-feely, passive-aggressive, perpetually adolescent post-modern Emo angst that tends to define so many characters in contemporary TV and movies.

Kylo, on the other hand...

Kor

Well, that is part of the Skywalker legacy, right?

 

[JD]

How does Luke fit the idea of "the Chosen One"?

He's a nobody, who discovers that he's part of a big heroic legacy, and that he's destined to save the galaxy. He's one of the best examples of a Chosen One in cinematic history.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Now if it's a genuine sexist remark then yes it ought to be dealt with, but if it's a genuine opinion of a character in a movie? Fair game.

Honestly, if it's genuine sexism, we're best off just ignoring it. The genuine trolls feed off of our attention.

The struggle I am running up against is the fact that Luke and Anakin are actually very similar to Rey in many respects, with Rey actually going through more than Luke in her early life. So, the acceptance of Luke and the rejection of Rey is quite strange to me.

IMO, what tips Rey into Mary Sue territory (and this is something that I didn't pick up on until multiple rewatches) is the number of skills stacked on top of her. She's a savant with the Force. Okay, sure, makes sense given the sometimes vague and plot-convenient ways in which the Force works. She's a great pilot. Okay, makes sense given that she's a main character in a Star Wars movie. And then, on top of that, she's also better than Han Solo at repairing the Falcon. And she can understand both BB8 and Chewie. And she's a good enough scavenger that she survived for years as an orphan on Jakku without, y'know, starving to death. Each of these skills in isolation can be justified. But putting them all together seems a bit excessive for someone who is basically a beginner character.

Comparatively, Anakin started out as a great pilot and a decent mechanic but didn't become proficient with a lightsaber until 10 years of training with Obi-wan. Luke, despite his plucky attitude, seemed to get underfoot as much as anything for most of A New Hope. His piloting skills didn't even come into play until the end of the movie. Even in The Empire Strikes Back, he'd only developed a little telekinesis. And even after days (weeks? months?) of training under Yoda, his first duel with Darth Vader ended with him getting mutilated and nearly killed.

The good news is that Daisy Ridley has enough charisma to make Rey a very entertaining character to watch. And even if Rey is over-skilled, that doesn't mean that her emotional journey won't be compelling.

Unfortunately, while I found Rey to be a much more interesting and nuanced character in The Last Jedi, especially in the cave scene, I'm very worried about Abrams' ability to stick the landing.

I like to think that whole Star Wars saga is Anakin’s story. Not Luke’s

Actually, from a larger, geopolitical perspective, the original 6 saga films are the story of Palpatine. We start with his humble beginnings as Senator from Naboo, then see him manipulate his way into Supreme Chancellor and eventually Emperor. Even in the films where he doesn't appear much, the Empire, his creation, looms over everything. The saga ends with the fall of his Empire and his death at the hands of his own apprentice. Palpatine and the rise and fall of his Empire is one of the few constants throughout the entire original 6 films. Part of why the sequel trilogy feels so tacked on, IMO, is because there's no transition from the New Republic to the First Order and no on-screen explanation for how this happened.

Maybe I missed something with TFA but I didn't see nearly as much complaint as I did with TLJ.

While The Force Awakens had its share of detractors, I would agree that things became a lot more heated and controversial with The Last Jedi. I think part of the issue is that we started with 2 factions-- those who enjoyed The Force Awakens as a return to "proper" Star Wars and those who couldn't stand Abrams' hacky writing & mystery boxes. Once The Last Jedi came out, we had 3 factions-- those who liked it, those who liked the classic feel of TFA but felt that TLJ completely destroyed Luke's hero status, and those who hated TFA to begin with and felt vindicated by all the new haters joining the fold. (Actually, there's also a 4th faction-- people who liked TLJ because it fixed or ignored most of the problems with TFA, but I think that may just be me. Can I be a faction if I'm only one person?)

But outside of recent threads and videos, it didn't really seem like Rey herself was the source of much controversy. Certainly not compared to Luke or the directors.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Anytime anyone claims Rey is a Mary Sue I just immediately stop listening to them.

 

[fireproof78]

IMO, what tips Rey into Mary Sue territory (and this is something that I didn't pick up on until multiple rewatches) is the number of skills stacked on top of her. She's a savant with the Force. Okay, sure, makes sense given the sometimes vague and plot-convenient ways in which the Force works. She's a great pilot. Okay, makes sense given that she's a main character in a Star Wars movie. And then, on top of that, she's also better than Han Solo at repairing the Falcon. And she can understand both BB8 and Chewie. And she's a good enough scavenger that she survived for years as an orphan on Jakku without, y'know, starving to death. Each of these skills in isolation can be justified. But putting them all together seems a bit excessive for someone who is basically a beginner character.

I disagree fundamentally that Rey is Mary Sue, largely because I believe her skills are earned. One, she doesn't "repair the Falcon better than Han Solo." She bypasses a part that had been put on there by Unkar Plutt. That's it.

She can understand droids and aliens? On a scavenger planet with several different races? That's not a stretch to me.

To me, all of her skills build upon her survival on Jakku. She may be a beginner in terms of to the audience, or to the larger galaxy, but she is hardly a beginner with several of her skills. That's an unfair analysis at best, and disingenuous at worst.

Comparatively, Anakin started out as a great pilot and a decent mechanic but didn't become proficient with a lightsaber until 10 years of training with Obi-wan. Luke, despite his plucky attitude, seemed to get underfoot as much as anything for most of A New Hope. His piloting skills didn't even come into play until the end of the movie. Even in The Empire Strikes Back, he'd only developed a little telekinesis. And even after days (weeks? months?) of training under Yoda, his first duel with Darth Vader ended with him getting mutilated and nearly killed.

Anakin starts out as a 9 year old "slave" with his ostensibly nice life, including building his own racing pod, building and keeping his own droid, and being talented enough to survive podracing even though "no human can do it." He is exceptional in many ways,

Luke is probably the most relatable of the 3 characters, but that is by design. His piloting skills allow him to join in a Rebel fighter squadron without any demonstration of his ability. This becomes even more ridiculous after Rogue One in which the Rebels are demonstrated to have many pilots at their disposal, and several planets wanting to throw in behind them,

Neither Luke nor Anakin had to fight to survive. Again, Rey's skills flow from a believable place. Anakin's ability to own his own droid and race car, as well as Luke joining a military fighter squadron are just as off putting,

 

[Awesome Possum]

Pretty much every single complaint about Rey being a Mary Sue shows that the person saying it didn't actually pay attention to the context of the scenes. Every single one is explained through dialogue or through actions. Even when this is pointed out, the complainers just ignore and repeat the same argument. It pretty much boils down to she's a Mary Sue because she's a Mary Sue and nothing will change my mind.

 

[publiusr]

I'd still like to see her grow. In terms of strong female roles--I loved the interaction of Sigourney Weaver and Winona Ryder in Alien Resurrection.

How I would love to see Sigourney Weaver as a Jedi instructor. At the end of it--Rey would move like Miko from Sin City--and put Luke to shame.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I suppose it helps if we define terms. The rough definition that I use for "Mary Sue" is: A character who is nearly perfect at nearly everything, has no flaws, is always right, and everyone loves them.

Anakin doesn't qualify because he was wrong about everything. But he was never supposed to be a relatable Everyman hero. He's a tragic hero. The story of Anakin is that of a gifted savant who was manipulated into turning his talents toward evil.

Neither Luke nor Anakin had to fight to survive. Again, Rey's skills flow from a believable place.

The struggles of their respective childhoods have nothing to do with their Mary Sue status. If anything, stacking more unjustified hardships on a character makes them more likely to slip into that trope, not less.

I never said that any of Rey's skills were unbelievable, merely excessive. It frames her more as a wish fulfillment character than as the relatable Everyman hero. Although really the more significant question is what does she lack-- flaws. What kind of hero's journey can she go on if she doesn't have anything left to learn? Luke started out incredibly green, to the point where he was nearly killed in a random bar fight before they even left Tattooine. Or during their escape from Tattooine, Luke would ask dumb questions like, "What's that flashing?" Rey doesn't really have moments like that. The only time she makes any sort of fool out of herself is with the Caretakers on that Jedi temple island.

Again, that's not to say that she can't have an interesting emotional journey. But it does knock several points off of her on the relatability scale. Even if you justify each of the creators' character choices on paper, that doesn't mean that the character will completely land with all of your audience members.

 

[fireproof78]

Rey doesn't really have moments like that. The only time she makes any sort of fool out of herself is with the Caretakers on that Jedi temple island.

And nearly crashing the Falcon, letting the rathtars out.

that doesn't mean that the character will completely land with all of your audience members.

No character will land with all audience members.

I never said that any of Rey's skills were unbelievable, merely excessive. It frames her more as a wish fulfillment character than as the relatable Everyman hero. Although really the more significant question is what does she lack-- flaws.

Rey is incredibly naive. That's her flaw and that's what she needs to outgrow. She is awkward in personal relationships and doesn't even really know herself. That journey to identity is far more interesting to me, and will be to younger audience members, because that is relatable as well.

Or during their escape from Tattooine, Luke would ask dumb questions like, "What's that flashing?"

Luke asks one question then immediately sits in to a gunners turret and starts shooting up military grade fighters. Luke has great moments of greenness, only to have great moments of excellence and excessive ability.

In all, Rey is not unique in the franchise with this.

 

[mos6507]

Anytime anyone claims Rey is a Mary Sue I just immediately stop listening to them.

Mary Sue denial ain't just a river in egypt.

 

[Trekkin]

I suppose it helps if we define terms. The rough definition that I use for "Mary Sue" is:

Exhibit #836482 for how ‘Mary Sue’ has long since stopped being anything resembling observant critique, and is now nothing more than shorthand for ‘female characters that I don’t happen to like, but I’ll try to look more objective by saying it meets a criteria set by someone with more rep clout/knowledge/etc than me.’

If everyone keeps having to uniquely ‘define’ a term every time it’s used — and failing to do so means communication inevitably breaks down due to no one understanding ‘what you mean’ — then maybe the term itself is pretty broken, stupid, and generally useless.

Well...unless the gendering of it (the ‘bad female character’ bit that every definition has in commont) is a persons entire point, of course. In which case the ones who insist on using it, can hardly complain about being called out for their usage can they? Talk the talk, walk the walk.

This isn’t personal criticism of your post btw. Or even an accusation that you fit in the latter catagory of person using it. I’m more commenting on the trend.

 

[Jayson1]

I think Mary Sue is just used because it's a buzzword that has caught on and people don't even know any other word to describe a female character they don't like. You could just as easy say cliche action hero but that doesn't really have a nice ring to it. It's like how everyone all of sudden became a SJW or Incel or snowflake etc these days. They are just pointless one word descriptions that no longer have any meaning because they have all been distorted by the internet.

Jason

 

[Gaith]

Rey is incredibly naive. That's her flaw and that's what she needs to outgrow.

Fair enough to the naive part. But for her to "need to outgrow" it, said flaw should have dramatic story consequences, and she should question herself over her actions and failings. See: Northern Lights (/The Golden Compass), where the heroine Lyra naively assumes she should help out her father (which, it must be said, isn't even a fraction as naive as Rey's abandoning Luke to try to redeem genocidal maniac Kylo Ren). And then Lyra spends a significant part of the next two books regretting and upbraiding herself for said mistake, while nevertheless continuing to be an assertive, indomitable badass. And that makes her a great character, who happens to be female.

Whenever Rey or her friends take a less-than-entirely-wise course, however, things seem to work out just fine... as seen in the conclusion of TLJ, where everyone is all smiles and positivity, despite just witnessing the deaths of nearly all their comrades.

Ultimately, a character is only as strong as the story which hosts them. Rey has a terrific actress and a lot of potential, but TFA and TLJ are bad to mediocre OT rehashes more interested in mystery boxes and then subverting mystery boxes than crafting compelling drama.

 

[Trekkin]

Ultimately, a character is only as strong as the story which hosts them.

I have multiple issues with that post, but this one thing in particular stands out to me.

Because if these supposed words of wisdom were truly the case, than no one would ever have brought a blue shirt, ugly-ass bowl-cut wig, and some pointy ears.

Cos Star Trek’s hit rate for ‘good’ (and no, I won’t include ‘mediocre’ or ‘not bad’) is, what...something like 25%?