Rewatching TOS After SNW

[Christopher]

The existence of the Gorn can't be classified if Starfleet was gearing up for a possible war with them.

The best handwave I've heard for Kirk's line about "the creature the Metrons called a Gorn" was that he was aware that the Gorn existed, but didn't recognize this variety of Gorn as necessarily being one of them, because the ones he'd been aware of before looked different. "All Those Who Wander" established that Gorn mutate swiftly to adapt to new conditions, so it follows that they have multiple phenotypes, reconciling the different appearances they've had in "Arena," "In a Mirror, Darkly," SNW, and even the Kelvin comics and computer game if you like.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Things are treated as new to the characters when they need to be introduced to the audience for the first time, because it's a handy way to give the exposition.

Of course, there's always the "explain it to the new guy who asks 'what's a ___'" trope.

 

[Tallguy]

The existence of the Gorn can't be classified if Starfleet was gearing up for a possible war with them.

The best handwave I've heard for Kirk's line about "the creature the Metrons called a Gorn" was that he was aware that the Gorn existed, but didn't recognize this variety of Gorn as necessarily being one of them, because the ones he'd been aware of before looked different. "All Those Who Wander" established that Gorn mutate swiftly to adapt to new conditions, so it follows that they have multiple phenotypes, reconciling the different appearances they've had in "Arena," "In a Mirror, Darkly," SNW, and even the Kelvin comics and computer game if you like.

Still skipping over Spock, Uhura, and Scotty being rather unconcerned at being told they had been chasing a Gorn ship.

 

[fireproof78]

Still skipping over Spock, Uhura, and Scotty being rather unconcerned at being told they had been chasing a Gorn ship.

I believe the term is stoic.

As they are seasoned professionals and know how to handle it, which was (supposedly) the quality of TOS and TNG in contrast to SNW, which presents very emotional people. They responded as Starfleet officers should be, correct?

 

[Mudd]

Still skipping over Spock, Uhura, and Scotty being rather unconcerned at being told they had been chasing a Gorn ship.

Because neither they nor the Gorn had established backstories at the time that Coon "borrowed" the entire show from Frederick Brown.

And now they do.

 

[Christopher]

Still skipping over Spock, Uhura, and Scotty being rather unconcerned at being told they had been chasing a Gorn ship.

Maybe they were just more concerned with their captain's fate at that point.

 

[Tallguy]

Because neither they nor the Gorn had established backstories at the time that Coon "borrowed" the entire show from Frederick Brown.

And now they do.

Absolute truth.

Just making it clear, again, that the objection never has been, never will be, that because the Gorn do not look look like a 1966 special effect that I am OUTRAGED over the continuity transgression. I have other reasons for my mild and generally unimportant outrage. Really, it's more of a snit.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

That is a sweeping generalization covering a lot of people from a generation that was, on the whole, far more literate and better educated than the current one. I think it's safe to say that what you are describing is what made it to the screen past the world of producers, censors, and others wanting to 'dumb it down' or 'keep it simple' for TV audiences, but be careful assuming that the writers themselves weren't well aware of the various cultures and differences- probably more so than the average person today. At least the average American.

Again, you are taking what you saw on TV and in movie theaters and applying it as a litmus test to the knowledge and intelligence of a whole generation of writers, among whom your example, Roddenberry, is just ONE. And we are well aware of the Great Bird's issues in these matters. Also, racism is a far different animal than book knowledge of various asian cultures and their differences, so let's not move the goalposts on that one. Anytime you make an assertion that paints EVERYONE in a group with the same broad brush, you are standing into torpedo waters credibility wise. The first line of your post about 1960's American TV writers did just that. What they knew vs what they wrote for the screen were likely worlds apart. And yes, some were undoubtedly racist, and others undoubtedly weren't. Just like today.

Well put.

 

[kkt]

Because neither they nor the Gorn had established backstories at the time that Coon "borrowed" the entire show from Frederick Brown.

And now they do.

Thank you, I didn't know about Brown's short story.

 

[Noname Given]

Thank you, I didn't know about Brown's short story.

The F. Brown story was also 'borrowed' in the 60s Outer Limits episode Fun And Games.

 

[UssGlenn]

Thank you, I didn't know about Brown's short story.

Allegedly neither did Coon when he wrote it, at least consciously. They bought the rights to the story after, and gave Brown a screen credit.

 

[Mudd]

People read things and forget they read them. Whoever caught this and contacted Brown saved the studio a lot of headaches.

 

[Mudd]

Then he heard the voice.

Inside his head he heard it, not with his ears. It came from nowhere or everywhere. ‘Through spaces and dimensions wandering,’ rang the words in his mind, ‘and in this space and this time, I find two peoples about to exterminate one and so weaken the other that it would retrogress and never fulfill its destiny, but decay and return to mindless dust whence it came. And I say this must not happen.’

‘Who ... what are you?’ Carson didn’t say it aloud, but the question formed itself in his brain.

‘You would not understand completely. I am -- ‘ There was a pause as though the voice sought -- in Carson’s brain -- for a word that wasn’t there, a word he didn’t know. ‘I am the end of evolution of a race so old the time cannot be expressed in words that have meaning to your mind. A race fused into a single entity, eternal.

‘An entity such as your primitive race might become’ -- again the groping for a word -- ‘time from now. So might the race you call, in your mind, the Outsiders. So I intervene in the battle to come, the battle between fleets so evenly matched that destruction of both races will result. One must survive. One must progress and evolve.’

‘One?’ thought Carson. ‘Mine or...'

‘It is in my power to stop the war, to send the Outsiders back to their galaxy. But they would return, or your race would sooner or later follow them there. Only by remaining in this space and time to intervene constantly could I prevent them from destroying one another, and I cannot remain.

‘So I shall intervene now. I shall destroy one fleet completely without loss to the other. One civilization shall thus survive.’

‘From the outskirts of the not-yet battle I plucked two individuals, you and an Outsider. I see from your mind that, in your early history of nationalisms, battles between champions to decide issues between races were not unknown.

‘You and your opponent are here pitted against one another, naked and unarmed, under conditions equally unfamiliar to you both, equally unpleasant to you both. There is no time limit, for here there is no time. The survivor is the champion of his race. that race survives.’

‘But -- ‘ Carson’s protest was too inarticulate for expression, but the voice answered it.

‘It is fair. The conditions are such that the accident of physical strength will not completely decide the issue. There is a barrier. You will understand. Brain-power and courage will be more important than strength. Most especially courage, which is the will to survive.’

"Arena" by Frederick Brown is online here.

 

[Mudd]

 

[Dar70]

When I rewatch TOS after SNW I Don't think about it. I consider SNW as well as DISCO as separate....

What I do think about is what will come after. TOS AS, TOS movies, TNG, DS9, VOY, TNG MOVIES, (parts of the kelvin verse) ENT and PIC...

All one big story with hopefully more to come one day....

 

[Mudd]

I think about SNW a lot when I watch TOS. It makes TOS a different show in some respects, knowing the backstory and what the characters aren't saying to each other. "Amok Time?"

 

[indranee]

Only if she's an out-and-out psychopath. It's one thing to go through with a ritual that requires someone's death if it's literally the only way to get out of an unwanted marriage. It's another thing entirely to get someone killed out of sheer pettiness.

Remember "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

 

[Christopher]

Remember "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

Aside from the general sexism of that line, T'Pring was not the one who was "scorned." The expression is a paraphrase of a line from William Congreve's 1697 play The Mourning Bride:

Vile and ingrate! too late thou shalt repent
The base Injustice thou hast done my Love:
Yes, thou shalt know, spite of thy past Distress,
And all those Ills which thou so long hast mourn'd;
Heav'n has no Rage, like Love to Hatred turn'd,
Nor Hell a Fury, like a Woman scorn'd.

The speaker, Zara, is using "scorn'd" to mean betrayed or rejected in love. But T'Pring was the one who betrayed and rejected Spock by trying to manipulate things so she could be with Stonn instead.

 

[fireproof78]

T'Pring was scorned in a sense by Spock's choices that led him to becoming a legend. She opted to find a way that was logical to ensure her traditions were respected and needs met.

 

[Tuskin38]

And we see she's annoyed with him in SNW focusing on Starfleet so much.

SNW is adding more context to Amok Time.