Rewatching TOS After SNW

[Christopher]

Well it might be Roddenberry’s half remembered recollection of his friend’s middle name.

"Might" is a word that, ironically, has no power. It's meaningless without hard data, and we have none.

One source on Google claims that Noonien is a Chinese name meaning "gifted one," but I can't find any support for that in online Chinese dictionaries; the Mandarin word for "gifted" is tiāncái. The closest thing phonetically I can find is niúnián, which means the Year of the Ox.

As for Sikh names, I tried looking up male names starting with N, and the closest things I could find were compounds beginning with "Noor" (divine light), like Noorinder or Noordev.

Anyway, sources disagree on whether Roddenberry's friend was named Kim Noonien Singh or Noonien Wang, though the latter seems more likely to me, since "Kim" and "Singh" in the same name is an improbable mix. All we have is a muddled account based on Roddenberry's own uncertain memory.

 

[Jedi Marso]

You have to keep in mind that 1960s American TV writers were generally quite ignorant about Asian cultures and tended to lump everything from the Middle East to the Far East together into an undifferentiated Orientalist blob. It doesn't mean they intended characters to be multiethnic, it just meant they were too ignorant to know or care about the difference between one type of "Oriental" and another.

That is a sweeping generalization covering a lot of people from a generation that was, on the whole, far more literate and better educated than the current one. I think it's safe to say that what you are describing is what made it to the screen past the world of producers, censors, and others wanting to 'dumb it down' or 'keep it simple' for TV audiences, but be careful assuming that the writers themselves weren't well aware of the various cultures and differences- probably more so than the average person today. At least the average American.

 

[Christopher]

That is a sweeping generalization covering a lot of people from a generation that was, on the whole, far more literate and better educated than the current one. I think it's safe to say that what you are describing is what made it to the screen past the world of producers, censors, and others wanting to 'dumb it down' or 'keep it simple' for TV audiences, but be careful assuming that the writers themselves weren't well aware of the various cultures and differences- probably more so than the average person today. At least the average American.

Well, if Roddenberry thought the Sulu Sea touched many different countries instead of just two, I think that tells us that he wasn't all that versed in Asian cultures. And that's not even counting the outright racism of "The Omega Glory," literally calling the Kohms, and by implication their Chinese counterparts, "the yellow race" and equating Americans with "the white race."

And before anyone says it, including Sulu in TOS doesn't mean Roddenberry didn't buy into the pervasive racist attitudes toward Asians in those days. It was always part of the prejudice that fully assimilated, Westernized Asians or other minorities were "the good ones," the ones who'd been converted from their primitive heathen ways and could be welcomed into white society. You can see a ton of this in The Man from UNCLE, where there was always one beautiful, Westernized young woman who helped the heroes while the other, unassimilated members of her culture were the villains. Sulu is a classic example of a "good Asian" character who's totally Westernized and thus acceptable. (Which is made textual in "The Infinite Vulcan"'s poorly-aged joke about Sulu not being "inscrutable" as per the racist stereotype of Asians.)

 

[Tallguy]

So you're saying they might not be considering race at all, but the actual culture and behaviors that people practice? That's just CRAZY!

 

[Nerys Myk]

. All we have is a muddled account based on Roddenberry's own uncertain memory.

Isn’t that what I said?

 

[Jedi Marso]

Well, if Roddenberry thought the Sulu Sea touched many different countries instead of just two, I think that tells us that he wasn't all that versed in Asian cultures. And that's not even counting the outright racism of "The Omega Glory," literally calling the Kohms, and by implication their Chinese counterparts, "the yellow race" and equating Americans with "the white race."

And before anyone says it, including Sulu in TOS doesn't mean Roddenberry didn't buy into the pervasive racist attitudes toward Asians in those days. It was always part of the prejudice that fully assimilated, Westernized Asians or other minorities were "the good ones," the ones who'd been converted from their primitive heathen ways and could be welcomed into white society. You can see a ton of this in The Man from UNCLE, where there was always one beautiful, Westernized young woman who helped the heroes while the other, unassimilated members of her culture were the villains. Sulu is a classic example of a "good Asian" character who's totally Westernized and thus acceptable. (Which is made textual in "The Infinite Vulcan"'s poorly-aged joke about Sulu not being "inscrutable" as per the racist stereotype of Asians.)

Again, you are taking what you saw on TV and in movie theaters and applying it as a litmus test to the knowledge and intelligence of a whole generation of writers, among whom your example, Roddenberry, is just ONE. And we are well aware of the Great Bird's issues in these matters. Also, racism is a far different animal than book knowledge of various asian cultures and their differences, so let's not move the goalposts on that one. Anytime you make an assertion that paints EVERYONE in a group with the same broad brush, you are standing into torpedo waters credibility wise. The first line of your post about 1960's American TV writers did just that. What they knew vs what they wrote for the screen were likely worlds apart. And yes, some were undoubtedly racist, and others undoubtedly weren't. Just like today.

 

[Christopher]

Again, you are taking what you saw on TV and in movie theaters and applying it as a litmus test to the knowledge and intelligence of a whole generation of writers, among whom your example, Roddenberry, is just ONE.

Look, how much 1960s TV have you actually seen? Because I've seen a ton of it, and the racism is pervasive as hell. Even the attempts to be progressive and inclusive are racist by modern standards. Racism is a systemic problem. Calling attention to it is not an attack on individuals, it's an acknowledgment of the larger issues of the culture they inhabit.

 

[Tallguy]

 

[Jedi Marso]

Look, how much 1960s TV have you actually seen? Because I've seen a ton of it, and the racism is pervasive as hell. Even the attempts to be progressive and inclusive are racist by modern standards. Racism is a systemic problem. Calling attention to it is not an attack on individuals, it's an acknowledgment of the larger issues of the culture they inhabit.

You obviously didn't read a thing I wrote in that last post. End of line.

 

[Christopher]

You obviously didn't read a thing I wrote in that last post. End of line.

I did, and was pointing out why your assumptions were erroneous. You're taking the usual line of "No, don't call people racist, it's insulting and unfair!," which is itself part of what perpetuates systemic racism because it paints the perpetrators or beneficiaries of systemic racism as the victims and thereby distracts from a discussion of how systemic racism impacts the actual victims.

As I said, the reason it's an erroneous way of addressing the question is that "racism" is not an accusation of an individual's personal faults, but an acknowledgment of a systemic, institutional process that one can be unknowingly a participant in without intending it. There are genuine racists, yes, but there are also plenty of people who perpetuate racist cultural attitudes and assumptions without any malicious intent, simply due to not knowing any better. And I include myself in this. I was raised with a lot of attitudes and assumptions that I now recognize as racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc., and I've had to learn to recognize them for what they were in order to stop perpetuating them. If I had hidden behind "No, don't oppress me by calling me racist!" rhetoric, I'd just have closed my mind to the lessons I needed to learn to become a better person.

 

[Mudd]

I think we have to start from the assumption that the original name was being badly mispronounced. Nguyen, N-Gu-y-en, Nuh-Goo-ee-en, Noonian. Hypothetically, I could see someone getting tired of correcting all the ignorant Americans about the pronunciation and just going with it.

It almost certainly was.

Again, the evidence for "Noonien" or "Noonian" as a name at all is nearly nonexistent.

 

[Nyotarules]

Perhaps Kirk tries out Uhura's advice:

LINCOLN: What a charming negress. Oh, forgive me, my dear. I know in my time some used that term as a description of property.
UHURA: But why should I object to that term, sir? You see, in our century we've learned not to fear words.
KIRK: May I present our communications officer, Lieutenant Uhura.
LINCOLN: The foolishness of my century had me apologising where no offense was given.

I bet a non 'negress' or 'negro' wrote that script

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

You see, in our century we've learned not to fear words.

We're not nearly there yet.

 

[Mudd]

They've made great use of La'An's family connection to Khan in a less cliche fashion by focusing on her isolation and problematic feelings about it. People have attempted to use it against her at least once, and they paid the relationship off in a big way in "Tomorrow..."

All a great deal more interesting from a character standpoint than one more repetition of the damned "Augment" saga...

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Yeah, instead of making La'an a supervillain waiting to emerge, there's the whole "guilt by association" thing, which would apply even if it was some other famous tyrant, augmentation aside.

 

[Commander Troi]

I re-watched Arena yesterday. Kirk is definitely not familiar with the name or look of the Gorn, but he hasn't been in the SNW episodes with them either. Spock would have recognized the Gorn once the Metrons broadcast images of the fight, but one can rationalize that he was too worried about Kirk to mention it. It'll be interesting to see if they do anything with this in the second half of Hegemony.

 

[Jedi Marso]

I re-watched Arena yesterday. Kirk is definitely not familiar with the name or look of the Gorn, but he hasn't been in the SNW episodes with them either. Spock would have recognized the Gorn once the Metrons broadcast images of the fight, but one can rationalize that he was too worried about Kirk to mention it. It'll be interesting to see if they do anything with this in the second half of Hegemony.

I rewatched this one last week. If you squint real hard mentally, you can stretch and strain and convince yourself that maybe Spock and Uhura weren't surprised at what they were seeing. But when I squint that hard I can't see the TV anymore and my head hurts. But all the talk about the Gorn and territorial boundarines- that's too much of a stretch to reconcile with SNW, in my book. People will try though, if they want it hard enough.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Or perhaps they have been sworn to secrecy about what they experienced. "It's classified."

 

[Christopher]

I re-watched Arena yesterday. Kirk is definitely not familiar with the name or look of the Gorn, but he hasn't been in the SNW episodes with them either.

I don't worry too much about such inconsistencies, since they're just part of the vagaries of an evolving fictional universe. Kirk in "The Savage Curtain" had never heard of Surak, which could make sense if Vulcan had only joined the Federation comparatively recently as TOS sometimes seemed to imply, but would be absurd given what we now know about Vulcan's centuries-long relationship with Earth. And in TNG: "The Last Outpost," Picard had never heard of the ancient Tkon Empire even though he was later established as an archaeology maven.

It's the same as Spock saying he'd never melded with a human or having his first command. Things are treated as new to the characters when they need to be introduced to the audience for the first time, because it's a handy way to give the exposition. But it often doesn't make sense once the universe's backstory is fleshed out more fully, especially if there are prequels building on ideas from the chronologically later work.

 

[Tallguy]

Or perhaps they have been sworn to secrecy about what they experienced. "It's classified."

"You know, when my SISTER met the Gorn--- Dammit."