Rewatching TOS After SNW

[fireproof78]

It's two different shows

TOS: produced in the 60s.

SNW: produced in the 2020s.

The shit you say that they are different shows?

They can't not be. Even TNG gave us very different views on the TOS era and characters. Voyager treated it like the wild west, and Kirk became some kind of rule breaking thrill seeker.

It's almost like views on shows viewed through history are regarded differently.

Now, how to handle the differences?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

the writers clearly aren't giving much thought to how divergent the portrayals of nearly every character is.

Individuals in the real world diverge from themselves, often, too: the public persona from the private, in front of co-workers/colleagues vs superiors, friends vs family. We have layers, and dichotomies, and hypocrisies.

 

[Christopher]

It's two different shows, and the writers clearly aren't giving much thought to how divergent the portrayals of nearly every character is.

Of course they are. Keep in mind that these characters are some 6-7 years younger than the ones in TOS. It makes no sense to expect them to be identical. (The same goes for Kelvin, of course.)

They're actually doing an intriguing job threading the needle with Spock, Chapel, and Uhura. And Kirk here feels much more true to the original than Kelvin Kirk. M'Benga is more drastically reimagined, but we barely knew him in TOS anyway.

And none of the legacy characters here have been handled as badly as Harry Mudd, who was a lovable, harmless rogue in TOS but was retconned by DSC into a ruthless mass murderer.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Perhaps the rehabilitative effect of 23 century prisons dulled his taste for blood, but did nothing to abate his appetite for (ill-gotten) money or liquor. Eh, he's a work in progress.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And none of the legacy characters here have been handled as badly as Harry Mudd, who was a lovable, harmless rogue in TOS but was retconned by DSC into a ruthless mass murderer.

He seemed quite happy to hold the Enterprise hostage, with a threat of death hanging over it's head.

MUDD: I'm told they have only three days of orbit left before they start spiraling in. I do hate to see you suffering such a situation, Captain, but truth is truth, and the sad fact is you will deal. Sooner or later, you'll have to.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

He knows Kirk what will choose, because anyone in that kind of situation will put the lives of his crew first. It's a "who blinks first" scenario.

 

[Noname Given]

...And none of the legacy characters here have been handled as badly as Harry Mudd, who was a lovable, harmless rogue in TOS but was retconned by DSC into a ruthless mass murderer.

You might want to rewatch TOS S1 Mudd's Women again:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/4.htm

MUDD: "I'm told they have only three days of orbit left before they start spiraling in. I do hate to see you suffering such a situation, Captain, but truth is truth, and the sad fact is you will deal. Sooner or later, you'll have to."

^^^
Yeah Harry Mudd doesn't seem to have an issue with letting 430 crew 'spiral in' (and die) as their powerless Starship crashes into the planet surface...yep, just a real 'lovable rogue' here...oh, wait...

 

[Mytran]

You might want to rewatch TOS S1 Mudd's Women again:
http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/4.htm

^^^
Yeah Harry Mudd doesn't seem to have an issue with letting 430 crew 'spiral in' (and die) as their powerless Starship crashes into the planet surface...yep, just a real 'lovable rogue' here...oh, wait...

Except that Mudd is on the ship too - I can't believe he'd be willing to die rather than admit defeat!

 

[ananta]

I started rewatching TOS again too. To me, TOS and SNW are different shows, with some of the same character names. I kind of see SNW as a reboot or different universe and I’m perfectly fine with that. For me, TOS is it’s own unique thing.

 

[Christopher]

He seemed quite happy to hold the Enterprise hostage, with a threat of death hanging over it's head.

Death? No. The same line you quoted makes it quite explicit that Harry is certain Kirk will make the deal and nobody will die.

And there's a vast, vast difference between gaining leverage by pointing out a potentially deadly threat and the actual commission of dozens of murders in a row without a shred of hesitation or remorse. Worse, Mudd in "Magic" killed Ash Tyler in a gratuitously slow and agonizing manner at a point when he believed the time loop was finished and Tyler's death would stick permanently. That's the behavior of an absolute monster. Why would the writers choose to retcon a lovable rogue into someone so viciously psychopathic and expect us to still consider him a lovable rogue?

I don't care about after-the-fact continuity lampshades, the point is that they completely reimagined the character in a way that made him unrecognizable, which was a very bizarre and ill-conceived storytelling choice. And that's a mistake that SNW has not made with its legacy characters (except maybe M'Benga, but again, he was a virtual blank slate in TOS). Although it's a mistake SNW has made with the Gorn -- making them virtually unrecognizable and much less appealing.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Except that Mudd is on the ship too - I can't believe he'd be willing to die rather than admit defeat!

He beams off the ship in the next scene. Though for some reason he beams back to the ship later only to beam down again.

Death? No. The same line you quoted makes it quite explicit that Harry is certain Kirk will make the deal and nobody will die.

A threat of death.

 

[Mudd]

Mudd is a pretty dark character in "Mudd's Women."

 

[Cjwilliams]

I just watched “What are little girls made of” for (I think) the first time when Chapel mentioned Dr. Colby on SNW.

The only thing that felt weird was Spock’s interactions with Chapel, especially him formally calling her “Nurse.” I guess not totally unlike him, anyway.

The big thing in What Are Little Girls Made Of that didn’t track for me was at the beginning when Chapel asks Spock “have you ever been engaged before?”
I guess it needs to be re-read now as sarcastic or as them downplaying their history.

 

[Odo]

What Are Little Girls Made Of
The Naked Time
The Menagerie
Balance Of Terror
Arena
Court Martial
Errand Of Mercy
Amok Time
Journey To Babel
Enterprise Incident

good list. I might add A Private Little War, since that has M’Benga (in a slighter bigger role than his other TOS episode), and we get to see M’Benga with Chapel, plus Klingons

 

[Christopher]

A threat of death.

Come on, be serious. He's not threatening to kill them, he's just saying that a threat exists due to outside circumstances, he can save them from it, and they have no choice but to accept his help. He's exerting leverage to extort them. That in itself is not an act of direct personal violence. It's absurd to pretend that a threat that never materializes, that the speaker explicitly says he never expects to materialize, is remotely comparable to the actual ruthless, cheerful murder of dozens and dozens of people. It's a specious and outright laughable comparison.

And again, whether you can convince yourself after the fact that they're reconcilable is beside the point. The point is that you have to try to convince yourself of that because they changed the portrayal of the character. DSC reinvented Harry Mudd in a way that SNW has not done with most of its legacy characters.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Mudd is a pretty dark character in "Mudd's Women."

What did happen to Leo Walsh?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Come on, be serious. He's not threatening to kill them, he's just saying that a threat exists due to outside circumstances, he can save them from it, and they have no choice but to accept his help. He's exerting leverage to extort them. That in itself is not an act of direct personal violence. It's absurd to pretend that a threat that never materializes, that the speaker explicitly says he never expects to materialize, is remotely comparable to the actual ruthless, cheerful murder of dozens and dozens of people. It's a specious and outright laughable comparison.

Pointing out he's more than a "lovable rogue" in "Mudd's Women". He's quite ruthless and devious. He becomes a clown in "I, Mudd".

 

[Mudd]

Pointing out he's more than a "lovable rogue" in "Mudd's Women". He's quite ruthless and devious. He becomes a clown in "I, Mudd".

Exactly so.

 

[Christopher]

Pointing out he's more than a "lovable rogue" in "Mudd's Women". He's quite ruthless and devious.

But not to the point of rampaging through a ship and casually murdering dozens of people, or gratuitously choosing to murder Tyler in the most sadistic and agonizing way possible. There's a massive difference of degree and category. And it's disingenuous to claim that "Mudd's Women" didn't play Harry comically, even if it wasn't to the same degree as in "I, Mudd." Kirk was calling him "Harry" and playfully bantering with him at the end. He wasn't played as a violent killer.

Of course, the really awful thing about "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad" is that they do play Harry Mudd as a violent, sadistic mass murderer, yet expect us to still perceive him as a lovable rogue, which is just sick.

 

[Nerys Myk]

But not to the point of rampaging through a ship and casually murdering dozens of people, or gratuitously choosing to murder Tyler in the most sadistic and agonizing way possible. There's a massive difference of degree and category. And it's disingenuous to claim that "Mudd's Women" didn't play Harry comically, even if it wasn't to the same degree as in "I, Mudd." Kirk was calling him "Harry" and playfully bantering with him at the end. He wasn't played as a violent killer.

Of course, the really awful thing about "Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad" is that they do play Harry Mudd as a violent, sadistic mass murderer, yet expect us to still perceive him as a lovable rogue, which is just sick.

Mudd puts on an act to disarm people. His "Leo Walsh" is just that. As is the "Harry Mudd" he presents to Kirk and others. The real Harry comes out when he's alone with his "cargo".