Revisiting Star Trek TOS/TAS...

[RAMA]

The situation in Justice is totally different than The Apple for example. They are already on the planet that is known to them...

Wrong.

Captain's log, stardate 41255.6. After delivering a party of Earth colonists to the Strnad solar system, we have discovered another Class M planet in the adjoining Rubicun star system. We are now in orbit there, having determined it to be inhabited as well as unusually lovely. My first officer has taken an away team down to make contact and they are in the process of returning to the ship.

I seem to recall some lines where the crew state there has been study of the planet, so I assumed there may have been contact...if not this is technically a PD violation. However I do agree with speech made by Picard at the end, and it has nothing to do with expansionism or treaty ports. Yes, definitely a story mistake here...

In the Apple, Kirk, investigates readings and is clearly not wanted, and unilaterally make a decision effecting the whole planet!

I love how you continually leave out the fact that Vaal attacked first and refused to allow Kirk and his landing party to leave.

It seems likely that Vaal or its creators had some sort of biosphere experiment going, or there was some plan Kirk could not be aware of, possibly even meant to save or advance the natives. If that's the case Kirk immediately causes contamination and threatens the society...and of course this comes to pass. I don't condone "shooting first" but VCaal may have seen it the other way around...

KIRK: Well, the last scout ship reported some pretty strange sensor readings.Starfleet wants it investigated and the inhabitants contacted. We do what we're told.
SPOCK: The soil here is remarkably rich and fertile, Captain. Husbandry would be quite efficacious.
KIRK: Are you sure about that?
SPOCK: Oh, quite sure. Readings indicate the entire planet is covered with growth like this. Curious, even at the poles there's very little variation in temperature which maintains a planet-wide average of seventy six degrees

Add to this, the disturbing fact they are thinking of taking OVER the planet despite the existence of natives on IT!!!

So again, what are the motives here? Research? Not like with the Edo.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

Another simplistic misquote. No, I said study is fine...ducks blinds etc as long as they don't make cultural contact. Its the WAY Kirk beams down that's a problem...

But Picard does the same exact thing in Justice and again in Who Watches the Watchers.

Once again your holding the two captains to two very different standards.

I've held different standards for accidental breaches, in all honesty, they should NOT correct mistakes once made. In Who Watches the Watchers it couldn't be helped and an attempt was made so no one would know anything by wiping out memory, only then did Picard reveal himself because the potential cultural contamination was worse, unlike Kirk, who often exacerbated the cultural contamination...(Think Piece of the Action, Fridays Child, A Pricate Little War).

 

[BillJ]

Add to this, the disturbing fact they are thinking of taking OVER the planet despite the existence of natives on IT!!!

So again, what are the motives here? Research? Not like with the Edo.

Man, you're really dancing hard to absolve Picard of doing the exact same things Kirk did.

No where is it stated that they're thinking about taking over the planet. If it's something they haven't seen before isn't it worth exploring?

 

[BillJ]

Another simplistic misquote. No, I said study is fine...ducks blinds etc as long as they don't make cultural contact. Its the WAY Kirk beams down that's a problem...

But Picard does the same exact thing in Justice and again in Who Watches the Watchers.

Once again your holding the two captains to two very different standards.

I've held different standards for accidental breaches, in all honesty, they should NOT correct mistakes once made. In Who Watches the Watchers it couldn't be helped and an attempt was made so no one would know anything by wiping out memory, only then did Picard reveal himself because the potential cultural contamination was worse, unlike Kirk, who often exacerbated the cultural contamination...(Think Piece of the Action, Fridays Child, A Pricate Little War).

Picard could have simply beamed Palmer up. Which is what the expert told him to do...

BARRON: Picard, you must beam Palmer aboard immediately. Without medical attention
PICARD: It's not as simple as that. He is surrounded by Mintakans. If he dematerialises before their eyes, the impact
BARRON: It will slightly increase the cultural contamination which already exists. A small price for saving Palmer's life.

But instead Picard decides to let the Mintakans know about other life and even beams one aboard. Sounds like that could cause some serious long-term problems for the Mintakans.

 

[RAMA]

Add to this, the disturbing fact they are thinking of taking OVER the planet despite the existence of natives on IT!!!

So again, what are the motives here? Research? Not like with the Edo.

Man, you're really dancing hard to absolve Picard of doing the exact same things Kirk did.

No where is it stated that they're thinking about taking over the planet. If it's something they haven't seen before isn't it worth exploring?

They are talking about husbandry on the planet, and conditions for life...clearly a preamble for settlement. Some writer forgot they weren't supposed to settle on planets with natives...oops.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

But Picard does the same exact thing in Justice and again in Who Watches the Watchers.

Once again your holding the two captains to two very different standards.

I've held different standards for accidental breaches, in all honesty, they should NOT correct mistakes once made. In Who Watches the Watchers it couldn't be helped and an attempt was made so no one would know anything by wiping out memory, only then did Picard reveal himself because the potential cultural contamination was worse, unlike Kirk, who often exacerbated the cultural contamination...(Think Piece of the Action, Fridays Child, A Pricate Little War).

Picard could have simply beamed Palmer up. Which is what the expert told him to do...

The expert was emotionally, personally motivated...the contamination scenerio was far worse. I don't have a problem with then trying to save the station...where the extra contamination occurs.

PS I have already agreed Picard ALSO broke the PD, this isn't an issue. I think they are qualitatively different...

The Question remains...why contact a known reclusive planet??? There are so many to investigate.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

Add to this, the disturbing fact they are thinking of taking OVER the planet despite the existence of natives on IT!!!

So again, what are the motives here? Research? Not like with the Edo.

Man, you're really dancing hard to absolve Picard of doing the exact same things Kirk did.

No where is it stated that they're thinking about taking over the planet. If it's something they haven't seen before isn't it worth exploring?

They are talking about husbandry on the planet, and conditions for life...clearly a preabmle for settlement. Some writer forgot they weren't supposed to settle on planets with natives...oops.

RAMA

There was no preamble for settlement.

For a fan you sell out TOS at every opportunity. Kirk always defies authority except for when he doesn't (either way in your world its wrong), he always breaks the Prime Directive (even when he doesn't) and he's broken the Temporal Prime Directive seventeen times (even though it doesn't exist in his time and he only went back in time four times and upon each return the universe was as it was suppose to be).

Do you honestly think Picard would allow the Enterprise and it's thousand plus crew to be brought down by Vaal or Landru?

 

[BillJ]

I've held different standards for accidental breaches, in all honesty, they should NOT correct mistakes once made. In Who Watches the Watchers it couldn't be helped and an attempt was made so no one would know anything by wiping out memory, only then did Picard reveal himself because the potential cultural contamination was worse, unlike Kirk, who often exacerbated the cultural contamination...(Think Piece of the Action, Fridays Child, A Pricate Little War).

Picard could have simply beamed Palmer up. Which is what the expert told him to do...

The expert was emotionally, personally motivated...the contamination scenerio was far worse. I don't have a problem with then trying to save the station...where the extra contamination occurs.

PS I have already agreed Picard ALSO broke the PD, this isn't an issue. I think they are qualitatively different...

The Question remains...why contact a known reclusive planet??? There are so many to investigate.

RAMA

Isn't the purpose of science to figure out how things work? If so then Kirk being ordered to investigate a planet with a unique ecology wouldn't be out of the question.

There was nothing unique about the Rubicon system other than the Edo like to fuck and yet Picard had no problem exploring it.

 

[RAMA]

Man, you're really dancing hard to absolve Picard of doing the exact same things Kirk did.

No where is it stated that they're thinking about taking over the planet. If it's something they haven't seen before isn't it worth exploring?

They are talking about husbandry on the planet, and conditions for life...clearly a preabmle for settlement. Some writer forgot they weren't supposed to settle on planets with natives...oops.

RAMA

There was no preamble for settlement.

For a fan you sell out TOS at every opportunity. Kirk always defies authority except for when he doesn't (either way in your world its wrong), he always breaks the Prime Directive (even when he doesn't) and he's broken the Temporal Prime Directive seventeen times (even though it doesn't exist in his time and he only went back in time four times and upon each return the universe was as it was suppose to be).

Do you honestly think Picard would allow the Enterprise and it's thousand plus crew to be brought down by Vaal or Landru?

Again, these are your words not mine...based on your generalities of what you perceive non-fans think of TOS. Taken as a whole though, there is a disturbing pattern where Kirk and Starfleet of this time do not follow their own rules or make questionable decisions towards cultures, far more than in other series. Using absolute terms like "all", "every"and "always" has nothing to do with what I said at all.

Do you honestly think Kirk has a right to interfere at every planet he travels to, despite what the natives want? If he brings the E into danger, he's going to have to accept consequences.

I believe I clarified the Temporal Prime Directive? Why didn't you read or understand it? I said the time agents perceive him to violate time in the future because its a time based agency. I don't doubt the violations actually happened, but there is nothing they can do because it would violate the TPD! It IS in fact part of canon also.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

Picard could have simply beamed Palmer up. Which is what the expert told him to do...

The expert was emotionally, personally motivated...the contamination scenerio was far worse. I don't have a problem with then trying to save the station...where the extra contamination occurs.

PS I have already agreed Picard ALSO broke the PD, this isn't an issue. I think they are qualitatively different...

The Question remains...why contact a known reclusive planet??? There are so many to investigate.

RAMA

Isn't the purpose of science to figure out how things work? If so then Kirk being ordered to investigate a planet with a unique ecology wouldn't be out of the question.

There was nothing unique about the Rubicon system other than the Edo like to fuck and yet Picard had no problem exploring it.

If I want to do science in Afghanistan and I don't get permission, what might I expect?

I'm glad you value life sustaining planets and life so highly. I know they are mere trifles to you because you have manifest destiny on your side to do whatever you'd like on them.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

Do you honestly think Kirk has a right to interfere at every planet he travels to, despite what the natives want? If he brings the E into danger, he's going to have to accept consequences.

Your generalizing and you know it.

Would you allow the Klingons to have Capella and Neural to satisfy the Prime Directive?

Would you allow your ship and 430 crew to be pulled out of orbit (Gamma Trianguli VI/Beta III) by machines to satisfy the Prime Directive? Even though you were ordered there to investigate.

Would you allow a child to be executed to satisfy the Prime Directive?

Would you allow thousands of children to starve to death because of the sins of their parents to satisfy the Prime Directive?

Would you allow slavery of sentient (Triskellion) beings to continue to satisfy the Prime Directive?

Would you allow a peaceful, simple people to be destroyed by an asteroid to satisfy the Prime Directive?

Any rule has to be tempered with common-sense and compassion or its not a very good rule.

 

[RAMA]

For a fan you sell out TOS at every opportunity.

How so? I recently gave a very flawed "Ultimate Computer" episode ***** stars because there is so much of worth in it.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

If I want to do science in Afghanistan and I don't get permission, what might I expect?

I'm glad you value life sustaining planets and life so highly. I know they are mere trifles to you because you have manifest destiny on your side to do whatever you'd like on them.

I'm sure they would have if they could've reached the Gamma Trianguli VI visitors center.

See I'm arguing the actual facts of the episodes, all you've got is bluster. You gotta be a Republican.

 

[RAMA]

Do you honestly think Kirk has a right to interfere at every planet he travels to, despite what the natives want? If he brings the E into danger, he's going to have to accept consequences.

Your generalizing and you know it.

Would you allow the Klingons to have Capella and Neural to satisfy the Prime Directive?

Would you allow your ship and 430 crew to be pulled out of orbit (Gamma Trianguli VI/Beta III) by machines to satisfy the Prime Directive? Even though you were ordered there to investigate.

Would you allow a child to be executed to satisfy the Prime Directive?

Would you allow thousands of children to starve to death because of the sins of their parents to satisfy the Prime Directive?

Would you allow slavery of sentient (Triskellion) beings to continue to satisfy the Prime Directive?

Would you allow a peaceful, simple people to be destroyed by an asteroid to satisfy the Prime Directive?

Any rule has to be tempered with common-sense and compassion or its not a very good rule.

I'm simply answering your generality.

I've answered most of those questions before...and yes, I think there is a lot of death that has to naturally progress. Lots of history on other planets that has to play out without our interference, whether it means the death of the culture or not. I think Picard was wrong in Pen pals for example. I don't think Starfleet is out there to interfere on every injustice...they'd spend their WHOLE time and effort in space doing so if that were the case. The USA can't do it, its untenable and the same goes for the UFP.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

I'm simply answering your generality.

I've answered most of those questions before...and yes, I think there is a lot of death that has to naturally progress. Lots of history on other planets that has to play out without our interference, whether it means the death of the culture or not. I think Picard was wrong in Pen pals for example. I don't think Starfleet is out there to interfere on every injustice...they'd spend their WHOLE time and effort in space doing so if that were the case. The USA can't do it, its untenable and the same goes for the UFP.

So life isn't worth the time and effort? Okay...

 

[Harvey]

Well, that got out of control fast.

I love "Spectre of the Gun," even if it is a little derivative of both "Arena" and "The Corbomite Maneuver." The setting is wonderfully surreal, and the photography perfectly captures the mood (the fence being blown away behind our unscathed heroes, or the Earps lining up one after another, for example).

Unfortunately, with very few exceptions ("The Tholian Web"), season three is mostly downhill from here.

 

[BillJ]

Well, that got out of control fast.

Nah. Just me and RAMA having some fun at the expense of the Prime Directive.

 

[Tallguy]

Agreed, but in "The Ultimate Computer" we saw it as only a static long shot and not as a moving approach that we get in Season 3.

Of course it could be it was originally shot as an approach flyby in Season 2 (maybe late in the season) and for some reason never used as such until Season 3.

And I'm pretty sure that the shot of the Enterprise surrounded by Romulan ships in "The Enterprise Incident" (minus the Rom ships) was a new angle.

Yes, we see more of the approach shot than we saw in The Ultimate Computer.

The shot in The Enterprise Incident is the very beginning of a shot that was introduced in The Gamesters of Triskelion.

I think it's just about definite that the 11 foot model spent all of season three in a box.

 

[Warped9]

We now return to our regularly scheduled subject...


“Elaan Of Troyius” *****

The Enterprise must ferry a reluctant high-ranking bride to her wedding.

I REALLY like this episode and candidly I always have. I like the way the bridge is lighted. I LOVE the music. I LIKE the way Kirk deals with the Elaasian Dohlman. I think Troyian Ambassador Petri is quirky and amusing. And even with the touches of contextual humour (like "Spectre Of The Gun" before it) I like how the episode's overall sensibility feels more like that of Season 1.

The other thing I quite like is how Shatner plays Kirk over the past two episodes. This Kirk isn't quite as casual as in Season 2. He's more like how he was played in Season 1.

Although "The Enterprise Incident" is the first aired episode to show the new Klingon Battle Cruiser in terms of production order this is the first time it's used. It's a beauty of a design and nice to see it in combat with Starfleet's best.

Another interesting wrinkle here is it's the girl throwing herself at Kirk and him trying to resist. He weakens momentarily, but Elaan can't compete with Kirk's real lady: the Enterprise.

This episode is just damned fun and in mostly good ways. If I have to quibble I would say that the supposed body armor suits of the Elaasian look ridiculous.

Finally it's amusing for Spock and McCoy to catch Kirk with his Prime Directive violation showing...in a matter of speaking.

 

[BillJ]

We now return to our regularly scheduled subject...


“Elaan Of Troyius” *****

The Enterprise must ferry a reluctant high-ranking bride to her wedding.

Solid '****' outing for me.