Revisiting Star Trek TOS/TAS...

[Warped9]

Well I never even watched the TOS-R of this episode its been so long since I've seen it...so if that's the case, they still had plenty of signs they are not wanted, right from the bouy to the original silence. Of course its also stated they are reclusive as well.

RAMA

It's a little hard to credit your criticism if your recall of the episode is sketchy.

So do you go into yards with beware of the dog signs, or keep out/no trespassing signs?

RAMA

The point is you're making an unfair criticism of the story when you already admit your recall of the details is vague. Your assumption doesn't gel with how the story actually plays out onscreen.

If you still don't care for the story or how part of it is done then that's fair, but at least you should be more familiar with it.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

I think you guys may be getting TOS and TNG confused. Remember: In TOS, the mission was "to boldly go where no man has gone before." It was not until TNG (and later) that the mission became "to timidly go only where no one objects and there is absolutely no chance of interfering with or influencing anyone or anything."

 

[RAMA]

It's a little hard to credit your criticism if your recall of the episode is sketchy.

So do you go into yards with beware of the dog signs, or keep out/no trespassing signs?

RAMA

The point is you're making an unfair criticism of the story when you already admit your recall of the details is vague. Your assumption doesn't gel with how the story actually plays out onscreen.

If you still don't care for the story or how part of it is done then that's fair, but at least you should be more familiar with it.

Its still a valid criticism for the reasons I mentioned. Its a major story point, I don't need to have seen it recently to recall that part.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

I think you guys may be getting TOS and TNG confused. Remember: In TOS, the mission was "to boldly go where no man has gone before." It was not until TNG (and later) that the mission became "to timidly go only where no one objects and there is absolutely no chance of interfering or influencing anyone or anything."

But that isn't entirely true. RAMA's hero, Jean-Luc Picard, stepped over the ol' Prime Directive line a few times. With far less at stake.

But that isn't important.

 

[RAMA]

I think you guys may be getting TOS and TNG confused. Remember: In TOS, the mission was "to boldly go where no man has gone before." It was not until TNG (and later) that the mission became "to timidly go only where no one objects and there is absolutely no chance of interfering or influencing anyone or anything."

No the later shows just learned to be more choosey about their plots and not create these cultures to knock down and make a point with, they found other ways to tell their stories. A distinct improvement, as the latter half of the 2nd season and 3rd season aptly demonstrates. In fact there is a lot more scientific exploration in STNG and more cultures discovered, with very few left damaged in their wake.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

I think you guys may be getting TOS and TNG confused. Remember: In TOS, the mission was "to boldly go where no man has gone before." It was not until TNG (and later) that the mission became "to timidly go only where no one objects and there is absolutely no chance of interfering or influencing anyone or anything."

But that isn't entirely true. RAMA's hero, Jean-Luc Picard, stepped over the ol' Prime Directive line a few times. With far less at stake.

But that isn't important.

Far fewer in frequency, and who are you to judge the stakes? One culture is as valid as another. If anything Picard's motives did not go on to effect the entire planet, something that is positive in terms of the PD! I've already said that I don't think the PD is an absolute, but Kirk or TOS's violations are pretty flagrant, other actions, if not specifically covered by the PD are simply questionable, as with Spectre.

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

RAMA, I recall you questioning my take on TNG episodes because of what you felt was a bias on my part. In this instance I'm sensing something of like manner on yours, particularly when it comes to Kirk.

This isn't a PD violation. They're attempting to contact an equally advanced civilization. As things later play out it's strongly implied that the Melkot were testing the Enterprise crew from the moment they entered their space. Nothing actually happened after making the initial contact with the Melkot buoy---it was all a telepathic fiction. And at no point, even during the illusion, does Kirk interfere in any way with the Melkot culture even in his imagination.

 

[BillJ]

I think you guys may be getting TOS and TNG confused. Remember: In TOS, the mission was "to boldly go where no man has gone before." It was not until TNG (and later) that the mission became "to timidly go only where no one objects and there is absolutely no chance of interfering or influencing anyone or anything."

But that isn't entirely true. RAMA's hero, Jean-Luc Picard, stepped over the ol' Prime Directive line a few times. With far less at stake.

But that isn't important.

Far fewer in frequency, and who are you to judge the stakes? One culture is as valid as another. If anything Picard's motives did not go on to effect the entire planet, something that is positive in terms of the PD! I've already said that I don't think the PD is an absolute, but Kirk or TOS's violations are pretty flagrant, other actions, if not specifically covered by the PD are simply questionable, as with Spectre.

RAMA

He told an entire planet that their laws were essentially a joke to save the life of one person.

And if I define a violation as loosely as you seem to then Picard and the Enterprise-D had quite a few.

 

[RAMA]

RAMA, I recall you questioning my take on TNG episodes because of what you felt was a bias on my part. In this instance I'm sensing something of like manner on yours, particularly when it comes to Kirk.

This isn't a PD violation. They're attempting to contact an equally advanced civilization. As things later play out it's strongly implied that the Melkot were testing the Enterprise crew from the moment they entered their space. Nothing actually happened after making the initial contact with the Melkot buoy---it was all a telepathic fiction. And at no point, even during the illusion, does Kirk interfere in any way with the Melkot culture even in his imagination.

Actually my ratings seem to be pretty close to yours so far, I just have a feeling the 3rd season is going to diverge from this.

I didn't say it was technically a PD violation. However, the UFP unilaterally decides to contact a race that doesnt wanted to be contacted, advanced or not...I would say there is still some variation on the law that says the UFP does not have the right to impose its will on others...otherwise, they are Klingons. In the light of the orders in A Taste of Amegeddon, this makes this occasion doubly suspect. What is the motivation here??

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

But that isn't entirely true. RAMA's hero, Jean-Luc Picard, stepped over the ol' Prime Directive line a few times. With far less at stake.

But that isn't important.

Far fewer in frequency, and who are you to judge the stakes? One culture is as valid as another. If anything Picard's motives did not go on to effect the entire planet, something that is positive in terms of the PD! I've already said that I don't think the PD is an absolute, but Kirk or TOS's violations are pretty flagrant, other actions, if not specifically covered by the PD are simply questionable, as with Spectre.

RAMA

He told an entire planet that their laws were essentially a joke to save the life of one person.

And if I define a violation as loosely as you seem to then Picard and the Enterprise-D had quite a few.

Well this is your term for it, the actual dialogue is a lot different. If anything, Picard was respectful and eloquent in the episode, and stated my exact feelings on the PD. If we are thinking of the same episode....

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

Far fewer in frequency, and who are you to judge the stakes? One culture is as valid as another. If anything Picard's motives did not go on to effect the entire planet, something that is positive in terms of the PD! I've already said that I don't think the PD is an absolute, but Kirk or TOS's violations are pretty flagrant, other actions, if not specifically covered by the PD are simply questionable, as with Spectre.

RAMA

He told an entire planet that their laws were essentially a joke to save the life of one person.

And if I define a violation as loosely as you seem to then Picard and the Enterprise-D had quite a few.

Well this is your term for it, the actual dialogue is a lot different. If anything, Picard was respectful and eloquent in the episode, and stated my exact feelings on the PD. If we are thinking of the same episode....

RAMA

But your saying it's okay for Picard to violate the Prime Directive to save one life, but skewer Kirk for doing the same to save 430.

 

[RAMA]

It's a little hard to credit your criticism if your recall of the episode is sketchy.

So do you go into yards with beware of the dog signs, or keep out/no trespassing signs?

RAMA

You were the guy that refused to answer whether it was okay to shoot someone for stepping on your lawn in regards to The Apple.

Huh? I don't recall such a question, and no I don't think its ok unless someone is specifically trying to cause bodily harm. I am simply saying there are plenty of people who would!

 

[RAMA]

He told an entire planet that their laws were essentially a joke to save the life of one person.

And if I define a violation as loosely as you seem to then Picard and the Enterprise-D had quite a few.

Well this is your term for it, the actual dialogue is a lot different. If anything, Picard was respectful and eloquent in the episode, and stated my exact feelings on the PD. If we are thinking of the same episode....

RAMA

But your saying it's okay for Picard to violate the Prime Directive to save one life, but skewer Kirk for doing the same to save 430.

How often does Kirk/his orders GET him into those situations? It only supports my idea that the Starfleet of the time is portrayed as far too expansionist and keen to interfere. I don't see this as the case in the 24th century.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

None of that happened until after Vaal attacked the Enterprise, lets also not forget that it is Vaal that teaches the population of Gamma Trianguli VI how to kill.

So? Kirk already knows how to kill...and Vaal wouldn't have done anything if Kirk hadn't landed in the first place.

RAMA

So it's okay to shoot a stranger that steps on your lawn?

So do you go into yards with beware of the dog signs, or keep out/no trespassing signs?

RAMA

You were the guy that refused to answer whether it was okay to shoot someone for stepping on your lawn in regards to The Apple.

Huh? I don't recall such a question, and no I don't think its ok unless someone is specifically trying to cause bodily harm. I am simply saying there are plenty of people who would!

 

[BillJ]

Well this is your term for it, the actual dialogue is a lot different. If anything, Picard was respectful and eloquent in the episode, and stated my exact feelings on the PD. If we are thinking of the same episode....

RAMA

But your saying it's okay for Picard to violate the Prime Directive to save one life, but skewer Kirk for doing the same to save 430.

How often does Kirk/his orders GET him into those situations? It only supports my idea that the Starfleet of the time is portrayed as far too expansionist and keen to interfere. I don't see this as the case in the 24th century.

RAMA

Way to skirt around it.

 

[RAMA]

But your saying it's okay for Picard to violate the Prime Directive to save one life, but skewer Kirk for doing the same to save 430.

How often does Kirk/his orders GET him into those situations? It only supports my idea that the Starfleet of the time is portrayed as far too expansionist and keen to interfere. I don't see this as the case in the 24th century.

RAMA

Way to skirt around it.

If you look back carefully, its always the intention I question first...In other words, why did they do it? Its only after the mess is made that you have to supply a rationale for saving the ship or crewman. This is called working yourself into a corner, or "bad writing", especially when the themes of the show espouse freedom, democracy, self-determination. The situation in Justice is totally different than The Apple for example. They are already on the planet that is known to them, but they violate a cultural law, one I think Picard might have a legal chance in (apparently their god agreed). In the Apple, Kirk, investigates readings and is clearly not wanted, and unilaterally make a decision effecting the whole planet! Picard never changed the Edo gov't or their way of thinking, he only fought for fairness.

Some interesting theories about contact here at this link...its hard to say who is right, but if Carl Sagan and William Newman are right, and mainly "benevolent" advanced aliens survived self destruction and exist, as in "Contact" they would likely very slowly over even 1000s of years contact a less advanced culture (a kind of PD)...and make no mistake, the PD is not necessarily "natural", its ethical. Because isn't it the sad history of the human race so far that we haven't followed this ethic?

http://www.bohemian.com/bohemian/01.12.11/feature-1102.html

http://beholdpalehorse.com/carl-sagan-on-advanced-civilizations-visting-earth.html

 

[BillJ]

If you look back carefully, its always the intention I question first...In other words, why did they do it? Its only after the mess is made that you have to supply a rationale for saving the ship or crewman. The situation in Justice is totally different than The Apple for example.

According to you in regards to The Apple, it's a violation to merely beam down. Are you not holding Picard to this same standard? They beamed down to a world not on the same technological footing as their own... they would immediately be introducing elements that the Edo were unaware of.

And unlike Kirk, Picard was evidently not under orders to explore this world.

 

[BillJ]

The situation in Justice is totally different than The Apple for example. They are already on the planet that is known to them...

Wrong.

Captain's log, stardate 41255.6. After delivering a party of Earth colonists to the Strnad solar system, we have discovered another Class M planet in the adjoining Rubicun star system. We are now in orbit there, having determined it to be inhabited as well as unusually lovely. My first officer has taken an away team down to make contact and they are in the process of returning to the ship.

In the Apple, Kirk, investigates readings and is clearly not wanted, and unilaterally make a decision effecting the whole planet!

I love how you continually leave out the fact that Vaal attacked first and refused to allow Kirk and his landing party to leave.

 

[RAMA]

If you look back carefully, its always the intention I question first...In other words, why did they do it? Its only after the mess is made that you have to supply a rationale for saving the ship or crewman. The situation in Justice is totally different than The Apple for example.

According to you in regards to The Apple, it's a violation to merely beam down. Are you not holding Picard to this same standard? They beamed down to a world not on the same technological footing as their own... they would immediately be introducing elements that the Edo were unaware of.

And unlike Kirk, Picard was evidently not under orders to explore this world.

I always assumed they seemed very familiar with each other, and that they had made first contact for some reason...but like some other episodes what the relationship is exactly isn't clear...its possible this episode was made before they realized they might be following a pattern of TOS...because very few episoses of that type were made afterwards.

Another simplistic misquote. No, I said study is fine...ducks blinds etc as long as they don't make cultural contact. Its the WAY Kirk beams down that's a problem...

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

Another simplistic misquote. No, I said study is fine...ducks blinds etc as long as they don't make cultural contact. Its the WAY Kirk beams down that's a problem...

But Picard does the same exact thing in Justice and again in Who Watches the Watchers.

Once again your holding the two captains to two very different standards.