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Resurrection vs Clone

Admiral Jean-Luc Picard

Commodore
Commodore
At the end of the season finale, how do you interpret Picard's resurrection? We are rold his consciousness was transferred, but wouldn't that amount to having been copied? Wouldn't that make android or biodroid Picard effectively a clone? If we call him a clone, is he any less real than human Picard?
 
I'm assuming Picard is a bioandroid. If Picard's consciousness was transferred to a new body, it's the same as when Sargon, Thalassa, and Henoch were transferred into spheres and then temporary donor bodies (Kirk's, Mulhall's, and Spock's respectively) in "Return to Tomorrow" (TOS) before what would've been their permanent android bodies. The only difference is: those would've been pure android bodies instead of Picard's bioandroid body.

When Kirk, Spock, and Mulhall's consciousnesses are transferred to the spheres Sargon, Henoch, and Thalassa lived in for millennia, we still think of the beings in those spheres as being Kirk, Spock, and Mulhall.
 
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I hope they clarify in S2 what exactly the differences are, if any, between a 'real' biological body and these new synths.
 
Lord Garth, in the case of Picard, what does transferring his consciousness to a biodroid entail? Was he simply copied? If human Picard somehow survived, would there be two Picards running around? What about the human soul?

My take on this is that I watched my childhood hero die an old man among friends after one last heroic deed. When Picard was revealed to be transferred to the biodroid, to me, this is a new Picard. A copy of Picard in some kind of Picard-looking biodroid. Picard 2 gets to live out the life Picard 1 would have had he not died.

I want Picard's new identity to be explored in Season 2. Seven can help him. Is Picard Picard or some kind of echo? Is Seven human, Borg? Do these questions ultimately matter? If you are perfectly cloned and your original self is dead, your clone might as well be you. I would not mind if I died and was replaced with a perfect clone. I might be dead in Heaven, but look guys, I can be in 2 places. lol
 
This is a subject that puzzles me too since the last episode. I tried to make sense of it by telling myself that Picard is what the producers want him to be - but that answer is quite unsatisfying.

If one goes back to "The Schizoid Man" Ira Graves claimes that he is almost complete after copying himself into Data. As this was only one Episode in the beginning of TNG no-one did ask many questions whether Ira was really Ira or just a copy of him.

If I accept that it is possible to make a perfect copy of one's memories and even behaviour patterns, the question still remains open whether it is possible to copy OR to transfer the Soul/Ghost/Chi. If I am looking at our current Computer technology, every movement between entities would be a copy. Think about transferring a picture from a camera through a PC to your phone. It is originally on the camera, then a copy of it ends up in the Ram of the computer, then another copy is created on the phone. Afterwards the no longer needed copies are deleted.

I would hate if this happened to JL (being deleted at least twice in the process). Therefore there must a different technology that allows to transfer - without copying - the Soul/Ghost/Chi of a person onto another location. I just can't imagine right now how that technology might work.

Duotronics? :shrug:
 
This is a subject that puzzles me too since the last episode. I tried to make sense of it by telling myself that Picard is what the producers want him to be - but that answer is quite unsatisfying.

If one goes back to "The Schizoid Man" Ira Graves claimes that he is almost complete after copying himself into Data. As this was only one Episode in the beginning of TNG no-one did ask many questions whether Ira was really Ira or just a copy of him.

If I accept that it is possible to make a perfect copy of one's memories and even behaviour patterns, the question still remains open whether it is possible to copy OR to transfer the Soul/Ghost/Chi. If I am looking at our current Computer technology, every movement between entities would be a copy. Think about transferring a picture from a camera through a PC to your phone. It is originally on the camera, then a copy of it ends up in the Ram of the computer, then another copy is created on the phone. Afterwards the no longer needed copies are deleted.

I would hate if this happened to JL (being deleted at least twice in the process). Therefore there must a different technology that allows to transfer - without copying - the Soul/Ghost/Chi of a person onto another location. I just can't imagine right now how that technology might work.

Duotronics? :shrug:
Interestingly, Marvel's Agents of SHIELD is exploring this very issue in its final season, currently airing, with Agent Coulson having been brought back, after his death, as an advanced android version of himself. In Coulson's case, he is not happy about his unasked for artificial resurrection at all and is having something of an existential crisis over it, asking many of the same questions you've raised here. It'll be interesting to see how Picard handles the concept, long-term.
 
I don't see how this is any different than the philosophical problem the transporter causes when it converts a body to energy, than rebuilds it again. In both cases there is a break in the physical form with a new body being generated. Outside observers see continuity, and the being in question claims continuity. We have no objective way of knowing if the original Picard experienced oblivion, and this is a "new Picard" or if was just like going to sleep for a short bit for Jean Luc.

Stepping outside of Trek for a minute, if a perfect enough copy of our mind allows us to be "resurrected" after death, then it is likely that none of us will experience subjective death. I say this because the universe/multiverse appears to be infinite according to cosmologists, which would mean that somewhere, a perfect copy of your mental states is being created...constantly.
 
Transporter: matter to energy to matter

Picard: woke up as biodroid, what did he do with his own body? What if Picard had died very slowly? Would bioPicard say oodbye as droidPicard looks on?
 
Lord Garth, in the case of Picard, what does transferring his consciousness to a biodroid entail? Was he simply copied? If human Picard somehow survived, would there be two Picards running around? What about the human soul?
I'm about to head out the door soon. And this requires a deep, insightful answer that spans not only science but also the supernatural and possibly also religion. And it's dependent on what each of us believes. That's my short-short non-answer. I'll give something more detailed some time tonight.
 
Transporter: matter to energy to matter

Picard: woke up as biodroid, what did he do with his own body? What if Picard had died very slowly? Would bioPicard say oodbye as droidPicard looks on?

Whatever the real world is like, Trek is replete with cases of "mind transfer." Spock's Katra was in McCoy. Kirk and Janet Lester briefly switched bodies. Sargon and his two followers transferred their minds into humans, and left their minds in glowy spheres. Cartesian dualism exists in the world of Star Trek. It is not a materialist setting
 
Whatever the real world is like, Trek is replete with cases of "mind transfer." Spock's Katra was in McCoy. Kirk and Janet Lester briefly switched bodies. Sargon and his two followers transferred their minds into humans, and left their minds in glowy spheres. Cartesian dualism exists in the world of Star Trek. It is not a materialist setting
Chakotay was separated from his body, as well as the various noncoporeal beings who behave as energy taking over bodies. The mind appears to be treated as energy in some sense, allowing for the transfer, like in the examples you have given.

Regardless of real world conceits Picard's mind transfer is consistent with Trek.
 
Season 2 opens with Tom Riker killing Will after an existential crisis and the entire season is a courtroom episode where Picard and Tom debate these questions. All filmed in one room
 
"Doctors Soong and Jurati, with help from Soji, were able to scan, map and transfer a complete neural image of your brain substrates."

They made an image of what makes him him. So nuPicard is a copy that is him in almost every way.

He differs in at least two ways.

1 He is not the original.
2 The defect that caused the death of the original Picard was fixed.
 
Season 2 opens with Tom Riker killing Will after an existential crisis and the entire season is a courtroom episode where Picard and Tom debate these questions. All filmed in one room
That could be the Tarantino film: Kill Will
 
Lord Garth, in the case of Picard, what does transferring his consciousness to a biodroid entail? Was he simply copied? If human Picard
somehow survived, would there be two Picards running around? What about the human soul?

My take on this is that I watched my childhood hero die an old man among friends after one last heroic deed. When Picard was revealed to be transferred to the biodroid, to me, this is a new Picard. A copy of Picard in some kind of Picard-looking biodroid. Picard 2 gets to live out the life Picard 1 would have had he not died.

I want Picard's new identity to be explored in Season 2. Seven can help him. Is Picard Picard or some kind of echo? Is Seven human, Borg? Do these questions ultimately matter? If you are perfectly cloned and your original self is dead, your clone might as well be you. I would not mind if I died and was replaced with a perfect clone. I might be dead in Heaven, but look guys, I can be in 2 places. lol

yeah copy data said that they mapped his memory that means they copied it. Picard really did die and what we have is android Picard. One with all Picard memories and experiences but not quite sure if he’s sentient or really aware. Yeah he can say he is but how does a outside observer really know. Even if he is aware or has a soul it’s still just a copy. I guess it was probably fitting. The old Picard was a shadow of his former greatness and we never saw him really return to what he once was which was a great commanding figure that always did what was right. After he let 7 take those weapons I knew the Picard I knew was gone. So maybe android copy Picard will be better but I doubt it. I’m still glad I have tng to watch and reminisce on the good better old days. Lol
 
Lord Garth, in the case of Picard, what does transferring his consciousness to a biodroid entail? Was he simply copied? If human Picard somehow survived, would there be two Picards running around? What about the human soul?

My take on this is that I watched my childhood hero die an old man among friends after one last heroic deed. When Picard was revealed to be transferred to the biodroid, to me, this is a new Picard. A copy of Picard in some kind of Picard-looking biodroid. Picard 2 gets to live out the life Picard 1 would have had he not died.

I want Picard's new identity to be explored in Season 2. Seven can help him. Is Picard Picard or some kind of echo? Is Seven human, Borg? Do these questions ultimately matter? If you are perfectly cloned and your original self is dead, your clone might as well be you. I would not mind if I died and was replaced with a perfect clone. I might be dead in Heaven, but look guys, I can be in 2 places. lol
I'm about to head out the door soon. And this requires a deep, insightful answer that spans not only science but also the supernatural and possibly also religion. And it's dependent on what each of us believes. That's my short-short non-answer. I'll give something more detailed some time tonight.
So these are my thoughts. Deep, philosophical thoughts that not everyone is going to agree with. I already know this in advance.

"Return to Tomorrow" (TOS) was written by John T. Dugan, who was a deeply religious person. His belief was that Sargon, Thalassa, and Henoch existed as Spirits. These spirits either inhabited their original bodies, the bodies of the spheres they were in, the bodies of Kirk, Mulhall, and Spock, and then finally android bodies. Wherever the spirits put themselves, that was their body. They could also exist without bodies. At the end of the original version of "Return to Tomorrow", Sargon and Thalassa would've existed as Spirits. John Dugan believed in an Afterlife. Gene Roddenberry did not, vetoed that idea, and they went into non-existence/oblivion. John Dugan hated this revision to his ending so much that he went by his pen name John Kingsbridge instead. (link)

My stance on religion and spirituality is that the two don't have to be connected to each other. Just because there are Spirits doesn't mean there has to be a God. I won't know about the existence of God, or a God, until I die and I'm not in a hurry to die. That makes me an Agnostic. Since we're created by our parents, our bodies and our spirit could've been created at the same time. If it's possible for the spirit to continue without the body, then spirits can move into another body that's without one. It can be transferred from one shell to another.

"Return to Tomorrow" doesn't contradict the idea of a spirit that can be transferred from one body to another. It reinforces that belief. The only Roddenberry-imposed mandate was that the spirit could not exist without a body. Doesn't matter what the body is. It just has to be inside of it.

Skipping ahead to Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, Kirk and Sarek find out that Spock's katra -- which I interpret to be another word for his spirit -- was transplanted onto McCoy. The schizophrenia caused by the two spirits being merged into one was driving McCoy insane. His body was McCoy but his mind was Spock and McCoy at the same time and the combination didn't mix. At the end of the movie, T'Lar separates Spock's mind from McCoy's mind, as if she were separating two cojoined twins with incompatible minds. Then she took Spock's katra and fused it with the spirit that existed inside the Regenerated Spock. Since the regenerated Spock's mind was a blank slate, the original Spock's katra was able to become dominant easily. Except the regenerated Spock's mind had to process a lifetime's worth of memories and experiences all at once. Too much for any brain to handle, which is why Spock was the way he was the end of TSFS and Sarek said, "Only time will answer." When Spock was talking to Kirk at the end, his brain was still processing everything. If his brain were like a computer booting up, he'd be like: "1%... 2%... 3%.... " and that's where he was when he said, "Jim. Your name is Jim."

"Return to Tomorrow" plus The Search for Spock equals "Et in Arcadia Ego".

Picard's spirit was transferred into a biosynthethic body. Picard's biosynthetic body can subconsciously process information much faster than a Human or Vulcan brain. Consciously, Picard 2 won't notice any difference, but subconsciously his brain sorted out everything before he even woke up in a way that Regenerated Spock's subconsciousness couldn't.

Long story short, bringing me back to what I said before, I think Picard's spirit was transplanted into Picard 2's body. Mentally, he's Picard 1. Physically, he's Picard 2.

Physically, we're not that different ourselves. Our cells regenerate constantly. We're technically not the same people we were even one year ago. Our spirits are in a different body. It's just that Picard's spirit was put into a different body all at once instead of a little at a time constantly.
 
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