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Resurrection vs Clone

Like it or not, Star Trek has long depicted it as being possible to transfer a mind from one body to another without destroying and copying that mind. You may not like it, but it is a conceit of Star Trek's fiction as surely as inertial dampeners and Heisenberg compensators, and we have to accept it.

When Kirk's mind was transferred into Janice Lester's body, his mind was preserved, not copied. When Spock's katra was transferred into his resurrected body, his mind was preserved, not copied. When Picard's mind was transferred from his original body to the golem, his mind was transferred, no copied.

That's the bottom line.
 
I'll take the show at face value: if in the next season they say it's a copy, it's a copy. If they say his consciousness was transferred, then his consciousness was transferred (we've seen that this is possible in ST: Turnabout Intruder, katras, The Schizoid Man, Cathexis...). The only way we could theoretically beam any one somewhere today would destroy them and copy them elsewhere, but they say in-universe that that's not how their transporters work so I'll accept that.
 
Like it or not, Star Trek has long depicted it as being possible to transfer a mind from one body to another without destroying and copying that mind. You may not like it, but it is a conceit of Star Trek's fiction as surely as inertial dampeners and Heisenberg compensators, and we have to accept it.
Okay. But that's still not what happened in Picard's season finale. The episode itself says so.
Picard is dead; confirmed in dialogue.
Scientists made a complete copy of everything Picard was and put it into a new body; confirmed in dialogue.

When Spock's katra was transferred into his resurrected body, his mind was preserved, not copied.
What was in McCoy? A copy or the real thing? If it was the real thing, what was in Spock when he died?
 
"Return to Tomorrow" (TOS) was written by John T. Dugan, who was a deeply religious person. His belief was that Sargon, Thalassa, and Henoch existed as Spirits. These spirits either inhabited their original bodies, the bodies of the spheres they were in, the bodies of Kirk, Mulhall, and Spock, and then finally android bodies. Wherever the spirits put themselves, that was their body. They could also exist without bodies. At the end of the original version of "Return to Tomorrow", Sargon and Thalassa would've existed as Spirits. John Dugan believed in an Afterlife. Gene Roddenberry did not, vetoed that idea, and they went into non-existence/oblivion. John Dugan hated this revision to his ending so much that he went by his pen name John Kingsbridge instead. (link)

Weird that Roddenberry would insist on this, when there are so many disembodied "spirit" type entities in TOS.

Physically, we're not that different ourselves. Our cells regenerate constantly. We're technically not the same people we were even one year ago. Our spirits are in a different body. It's just that Picard's spirit was put into a different body all at once instead of a little at a time constantly.

In the real world, there are materialist hypothesis of how experience could continue in a new body after biological death. One idea is that consciousness is just a collection of individual moments, and our brain stitches them together in a temporal pattern. Hence, there is potentially no issue with a copy of the mind being made somewhere else (uploaded into a computer, transporter clone, etc) and continuity of consciousness.

I'll take the show at face value: if in the next season they say it's a copy, it's a copy. If they say his consciousness was transferred, then his consciousness was transferred (we've seen that this is possible in ST: Turnabout Intruder, katras, The Schizoid Man, Cathexis...). The only way we could theoretically beam any one somewhere today would destroy them and copy them elsewhere, but they say in-universe that that's not how their transporters work so I'll accept that.

IIRC Chabon has already said it will be addressed in the second season. Presumably either Picard has an existential crisis or other people (most notably the Federation/Starfleet) will not recognize him as legally being the same person (even though he would have rights as a "synthetic.")

I sincerely hope that if it becomes part of the season arc, they actually reference what happened in these earlier episodes, rather than act like none of them ever happened.
 
Remember the film, The 6th Day with Arnold Schwarzenegger?
At the end there were 2 bad guys, so that was differently a copy.
Same with Picard, if Q poped up and brought Picard back to life, there'd be 2 picards. No matter how perfect a copy, its still a copy.
And there is a difference between an accended being and an electronic copy.

I remember a book series where there is regeneration technology where people are functionally immortal. But death does occur, body loss. so there is a memory crystal that records the memory's of the person, and is regularly back up to an off site storage center. and if there is a body loss, then a clone is made and memory's inserted from the memeory crystal if intact, or the latest backup copy. and the clone has all the rights of the original.
No, its not altered Carbon, that is also a copy, of a copy, of a copy in that series.
 
Weird that Roddenberry would insist on this, when there are so many disembodied "spirit" type entities in TOS.
It is weird.

But if you're thinking of species like the Organians in their natural form, Gene Roddenberry's idea was that we would eventually evolve into them as a species. This idea is carried forward into TNG with "Hide & Q" when Q points out that Humanity could one day surpass The Q.

I think he just didn't like the idea of "You die and then you go to Heaven or Hell," and wanted to stomp out anything like that. He didn't think we should be at the mercy of Gods. He thought we should become them instead and that over time we'd grow into them. It's why he argued that Gary Mitchell hadn't have gained the wisdom to be a God in "Where No Man Has Gone Before".

So I think his being anti-God and anti-religion colored his stance on what his writers could and couldn't do. And that upset John Dugan when he found out the hard way.
 
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I should say that my own subjective opinion is - provided souls do not exist - I see no reason to believe if you "copied" me in a perfect enough manner - that my subjective experience would necessarily remain in my original body. Why could it not be a 50/50 chance that I find myself in my original versus "new" body? The mind is clearly not made up of matter, because the individual atoms of our neurons are replaced constantly. The mind is structure, and a perfect enough copy of that structure should have subjective continuity.
 
I'm about to head out the door soon. And this requires a deep, insightful answer that spans not only science but also the supernatural and possibly also religion. And it's dependent on what each of us believes.

That much is true all right. Will you be the same person after you have walked through that door? After the night's sleep? Religion barely touches on the issue of doors, and while significance is given to sleep, little of the due concern is extended to the issue of waking up. And science has yet to figure out what the subject matter of this discussion is to begin with...

So these are my thoughts. Deep, philosophical thoughts that not everyone is going to agree with. I already know this in advance.

"Return to Tomorrow" (TOS) was written by John T. Dugan, who was a deeply religious person. His belief was that Sargon, Thalassa, and Henoch existed as Spirits. These spirits either inhabited their original bodies, the bodies of the spheres they were in, the bodies of Kirk, Mulhall, and Spock, and then finally android bodies. Wherever the spirits put themselves, that was their body. They could also exist without bodies. At the end of the original version of "Return to Tomorrow", Sargon and Thalassa would've existed as Spirits. John Dugan believed in an Afterlife. Gene Roddenberry did not, vetoed that idea, and they went into non-existence/oblivion. John Dugan hated this revision to his ending so much that he went by his pen name John Kingsbridge instead.

Absolutely fascinating! Of course, the issue is left somewhat open: were those spheres really vital in the survival of these persons, or mere placebos within which the Spirits could sleep, even though they'd fare equally well outdoors?

My stance on religion and spirituality is that the two don't have to be connected to each other. Just because there are Spirits doesn't mean there has to be a God. I won't know about the existence of God, or a God, until I die and I'm not in a hurry to die. That makes me an Agnostic. Since we're created by our parents, our bodies and our spirit could've been created at the same time. If it's possible for the spirit to continue without the body, then spirits can move into another body that's without one. It can be transferred from one shell to another.

...And all the better if all Spirits are created at, uh, Creation, and merely distributed across bodies and time. The act of distributing could then be repeated or altered until otherwise proven.

"Return to Tomorrow" doesn't contradict the idea of a spirit that can be transferred from one body to another. It reinforces that belief. The only Roddenberry-imposed mandate was that the spirit could not exist without a body. Doesn't matter what the body is. It just has to be inside of it.

...If that. Perhaps it just loses its voice if it loses vocal cords or a nice spherical membrane for its loudspeaker.

Skipping ahead to Star Trek III: The Search for Spock, Kirk and Sarek find out that Spock's katra -- which I interpret to be another word for his spirit -- was transplanted onto McCoy.

...Without killing or diminishing Spock in the process, interestingly enough. So copy/paste rather than cut/paste? Or merely "I'm my body, plus this little mostly irrelevant bit of extra we wear for decoration, and you get to have some of it for a while to remember me by - and to ensure my dad never gets hold of it, that bastard"?

Since the regenerated Spock's mind was a blank slate, the original Spock's katra was able to become dominant easily. Except the regenerated Spock's mind had to process a lifetime's worth of memories and experiences all at once. Too much for any brain to handle, which is why Spock was the way he was the end of TSFS and Sarek said, "Only time will answer." When Spock was talking to Kirk at the end, his brain was still processing everything. If his brain were like a computer booting up, he'd be like: "1%... 2%... 3%.... " and that's where he was when he said, "Jim. Your name is Jim."

This sure works - but the new Spock had already accumulated at least some memories, perhaps at an accelerated rate since his body and thus his brain grew faster than natural. Putting a katra in need not be something that requires a blank template; rather, it might just require a compatible template, that is, a Vulcan mind. Which is why McCoy and, in that other adventure, Archer had difficulty sharing, but why a trained Vulcan in that other adventure eventually absorbed the extra katra, perhaps as normally done.

"Return to Tomorrow" plus The Search for Spock equals "Et in Arcadia Ego".

Picard's spirit was transferred into a biosynthethic body. Picard's biosynthetic body can subconsciously process information much faster than a Human or Vulcan brain. Consciously, Picard 2 won't notice any difference, but subconsciously his brain sorted out everything before he even woke up in a way that Regenerated Spock's subconsciousness couldn't.

Whether the transfer was cut/paste or copy/paste isn't particularly relevant in the circumstances. And probably it wouldn't matter whether the donor was a human, with no tradition of katra passing, or a Vulcan, with such a tradition: humans aren't soulless in face of the evidence, and Vulcans don't have souls in face of the evidence, they merely stand on the same line when machinery is used to transfer self.

Physically, we're not that different ourselves. Our cells regenerate constantly. We're technically not the same people we were even one year ago. Our spirits are in a different body. It's just that Picard's spirit was put into a different body all at once instead of a little at a time constantly.

...The truly interesting case would have been in putting Picard's spirit in two bodies. Or 4.7 bodies, or 0.47 bodies. Which is what our favorite holographic lifeforms supposedly can do just fine, but this might actually distinguish them from "real" life.

PIC puts a nice twist to that by making Soongian souls "quantum": they aren't units contained in a positronic brain that stacks a lot of points to produce a whole, but can be extrapolated from a single point, which may not be quite the same as being contained in a single point but nicely stretches the definition past the primitive model of building blocks.

This might be what makes Soongians distinct from the rest of life. If all souls were "quantum", the telepathic species might have noticed. But certain types of mind might not be unitary - perhaps the Link is another case of a single mind getting stretched but never split?

In comparison, a simple transfer would be trivially easy for the subject to handle, physically, mentally and metaphysically.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Okay. But that's still not what happened in Picard's season finale. The episode itself says so.
Picard is dead; confirmed in dialogue.
Scientists made a complete copy of everything Picard was and put it into a new body; confirmed in dialogue.

Which line of dialogue "confirmed" that Picard's consciousness ceased to exist and that the consciousness placed into the golem was a copy of the original consciousness? Which line of dialogue "confirmed" that Picard's subjective consciousness did not simply move rather than be copied and destroyed?

What was in McCoy? A copy or the real thing? If it was the real thing, what was in Spock when he died?

Seems obvious to me that Spock's katra remained in his body until the time of death, at which point it traveled through the telepathic link Spock had created with McCoy when he mind-melded with him and thereby entered McCoy's brain.
 
I still suspect Picard is building to the reveal that all Vulcans were originally sentient organic androids when they split off from the Romulans. There’s enough to support in canon with a bit of wiggle room already. Song types are just the human variant.
 
I still suspect Picard is building to the reveal that all Vulcans were originally sentient organic androids when they split off from the Romulans. There’s enough to support in canon with a bit of wiggle room already. Song types are just the human variant.
Everyone's a Cylon. ;)
 
I still suspect Picard is building to the reveal that all Vulcans were originally sentient organic androids when they split off from the Romulans. There’s enough to support in canon with a bit of wiggle room already. Song types are just the human variant.
They made a big deal though that androids don't age and don't die, which is why organics supposedly hate them. Vulcans age and die from what we've seen.
 
They made a big deal though that androids don't age and don't die, which is why organics supposedly hate them. Vulcans age and die from what we've seen.

Very very slowly. In fact we have never seen one die of old age, only the software going dicky. (And one case of engine induced ouch, from which he got better.)
 
Very very slowly. In fact we have never seen one die of old age, only the software going dicky. (And one case of engine induced ouch, from which he got better.)
If you mean Spock from engine burns, he's half-Vulcan. And if you're going to count him with full Vulcans for purposes of aging, it was all but said he died of old age in Star Trek Beyond.
 
If you mean Spock from engine burns, he's half-Vulcan. And if you're going to count him with full Vulcans for purposes of aging, it was all but said he died of old age in Star Trek Beyond.
Spock was only about 165 when he died off screen in beyond. His father sarek made it past 200. So 165 for a Vulcan dying of supposed old age is probably not correct. He probably died of something else. Honestly it was lame how they killed the character off that way they should have just left it alone.
 
Spock was only about 165 when he died off screen in beyond. His father sarek made it past 200. So 165 for a Vulcan dying of supposed old age is probably not correct. He probably died of something else. Honestly it was lame how they killed the character off that way they should have just left it alone.
If we cut it in half to make it like a present day Human lifespan, it would be like Sarek lived to be 100 and Spock lived to be 80. It's been known to happen in real life.

Another consideration is that Spock was half-Human. So the Human half might've cut down his lifespan a bit.
 
It's been a long 4 months since the finale. I recalled them trying to imply that his quantum consciousness was transferred to the computer. My assumption was that they were implying that his consciousness was the macroscopic quantum state of Picard's consciousness and that had been transferred, not copied. You can't "copy" a quantum state but you can transfer it from one system to another. See No Cloning theorem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-cloning_theorem

Thomas Riker proves that Transporting is not a quantum transfer and thus must be a reconstruction of the matter only. If you copied all the matter or a person you would not copy the exact quantum states and could only approximate it. Since transporting doesn't really impact a person's mood or intended actions this implies that an exact cloning of the quantum aspect of their consciousness is not required to maintain the semblance of continuity.

If any of this shit were remotely possible it would allow for utterly fascinating experiments. But it isn't so we can either make up some nonscientific rationale for it or say transporter is copying without capturing all the quantum states of the original and the Transfer process Picard went through might be an exact transfer of quantum states. The mapping they referred to could be interpreted as setting up a scaffold for these quantum states to be mapped to that is equivalent to that of Picard's actual brain.

So maybe Picard is not a copy of the guy that died a few hours before, but every Picard that went through a transporter was a copy..... Unless Thomas Riker was not really a copy of Will Riker but a Will Riker from a parallel universe that bounced into this universe because of the accident and transporters actually transfer the quantum states to the reconstructed body.

Transporters are the most absurd thing in Trek so giving them the ability to map atoms and transfer some ungodly number of precise entanglements to a reconstructed body in a second or 2 is just making it more powerful magic.
 
Spock was only about 165 when he died off screen in beyond. His father sarek made it past 200. So 165 for a Vulcan dying of supposed old age is probably not correct. He probably died of something else. Honestly it was lame how they killed the character off that way they should have just left it alone.
It's not unreasonable to think that being half human hastened his aging. Also we don't know what effect the Genesis planet left him in or what exact age it left him at.
Transporters are the most absurd thing in Trek so giving them the ability to map atoms and transfer some ungodly number of precise entanglements to a reconstructed body in a second or 2 is just making it more powerful magic.
Well our tech would seem like powerful magic too to medieval people so who knows? It's actually more interesting that no one uses the transporters as weapons to beam the enemies into space, turn them into a puddle of misshapen goo, etc. Every time the heroes' shields are down the villains just blast them with traditional weaponry that our heroes manage to survive, instead of just beaming the bridge crew into space.
 
Spock was only about 165 when he died off screen in beyond. His father sarek made it past 200. So 165 for a Vulcan dying of supposed old age is probably not correct. He probably died of something else. Honestly it was lame how they killed the character off that way they should have just left it alone.
And ignore Nimoy's passing? I thought it was quite touching in the film.

Also, it's not like Spock had a normal lifespan to begin with.
 
Which line of dialogue "confirmed" that Picard's subjective consciousness did not simply move rather than be copied and destroyed?
That's not how brains work. If we're talking very specifically about human to android, his living consciousness would have been scanned and recreated in the golem. If Picard had died slowly, he would have seen himself reborn before having died.

Saw y'all talking about Spock dieing young of old age. He was half human.
 
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