'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS?

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

A villain is a specific type of antagonist, isn't it? Just as a hero is a specific type of protagonist. I think hero and villain are terms that generally characterize someone as good or evil rather than being just terms to describe their role in the plot. That's why we have the terms protagonist and antagonist, right?

 

[paudemge]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

I've always disliked the "I was every famous man in history" angle. What, mankind produced no OTHER person with talent?

This is also what bothers me about the episode.

 

[YARN]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Yarn - I am in awe. You first ask if we must all be literary critics (I am often guilty as charged), then write some really cool lit analysis. Who ARE you?

Solomon4VR, Ale-Xander, Lazarus Rex, Methuselatim, Merlin's Hammer, AbramsoultiniXXX. A hundred other internet handles you do not know...

 

[Forbin]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

You were stabbed once playing Zelda, and did not die!

 

[plynch]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Watched it. Very good. Nice acting, especially when he remembers pain and death a couple of times. Several, very nice, writerly speeches. Flawed, true, as usual the too-sudden-in-love thing, but what's perfect (besides my wife's brownies)?

Y'know, I could stomach the sudden love angle. i guess it can happen. But the obligatory fistfight at the end. Had they just argued, both pled to Rayna, that still could have fried her brain/heart.

But I like the depth/ambiguity, the humanity (very Sturgeonesque). In my top 10. Along with several other S3 weird ones.

 

[Warped9]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

What I thought rewatching it earlier this year.

"Requiem For Methuselah" ****

The Enterprise encounters an enigmatic recluse on a supposedly uninhabited planet.

I rather like this episode and I always have in varying degrees. And that's even while acknowledging that it has a glaring flaw: Kirk falling so hard and so fast for Rayna just isn't credible. The only rationalization I can imagine is that Kirk was being manipulated or influenced beyond what we see onscreen.

Perhaps Rayna was made with highly powerful pheromones or some other agent or means that influenced and enhanced Kirk's responses. It could have been very much like Elan's tears seen previously in "Elaan Of Troyius." The pity is we can only speculate because we're not given any clue onscreen.

Setting that issue aside I do think this is an interesting story on a number of levels. Never mind the historical fudging (because this is Star Trek's reality and not ours), but that an immortal having lived through the centuries and having been many well known figures is a compelling idea for a story. And then in the far future he elects to create a mate for himself, as immortal and as brilliant as he. Then in the end he not only loses what could have been the love of his life, but also learns he himself is no longer immortal. And if Rayna had survived then she would have outlived him.

Although they sidestep any technobabble that would surely have been tossed in if this story had been done in TNG, I admit that Rayna's death seems very much like Lal's in TNG's "The Offspring." Both were artificial lifeforms that hadn't had time to adapt to their new found emotions.

I must also say that I was gratified to see Rayna portrayed more like the Roger Corby type androids in "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" rather than the stupidity portrayed in "I, Mudd." Indeed she seems much more like the kind of construct that Sargon and Thalassa and Henock (from "Return To Tomorrow") could have inhabited.

The episode is also dressed better than some other third season episodes with Flint's and Rayna's costumes and Flint's elaborate home and laboratory.

This also wasn't a run-and-jump style adventure story. This was more a thoughtful science fiction story and an interesting compliment and contrast to "The Way To Eden" before it. The two episodes give us something of two different glimpses of TOS' far future society.

I find it rather classy for lack of a better word. That sense is certainly bolstered by its rather literary sounding title.

 

[Captain Tracy]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

WARPED9 -

Yes, you nailed it.

If one does the story analysis against the plot points, you can put there finger right on the spot you cite - KIRK FALLS IN LOVE - as the incident when the whole script takes a serious 'left turn' shift.

"Requiem" is one of my favorite stories,... right up to the point you mention,... then I just get depressed.

Where the writers could have taken this story!,... but did not,... Oh well, we get KIRK, or So-and-so, falls in love,... again.

I HAVE A SUSPICION - mind you, it is just a theory, an opinion, an idea,... Considering that TREK had some of the best Sci-Fi writers working for them,...

is it possible that so many of these stories which we view as 'de-railed stories' or stories which resorted to 'dishonest characterization/Motivation',... Is it possible that in an effort to try to make the show more appealing to the so-called fairer sex - and WIDEN AUDIENCE APPEAL AND VIEWERSHIP, perhaps at the "request" of the Network - did this purposefully?

Again, I am just postulating, BUT it could explain a great many things.

Anyway WARPED9 - If given the choice, would you rather have a fully functioning copy of the M-4 Robot, or a fully functioning copy of REYNA (before she became self-aware)?

 

[Timo]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Oh well, we get KIRK, or So-and-so, falls in love... again.

To be fair, it's actually a Trek first. Previously, Kirk had not been himself when coming under romantic influence - we'd seen him succumb to amnesia and to a devious plot involving an entire fake starship and debilitating illness, but never to a woman. Episode after episode featured Kirk pretending to be romantically influenced instead, whenever that served the mission.

And it's an old hobby horse of mine that "Methuselah" ought to count as a case of make-believe, too. Nowhere in the episode does Kirk actually express genuine attachment to Rayna, or regret that the fembot blows a fuze. Instead, when the going gets tough, he zeroes in on the one weak point of the invincible Flint and exploits it, then confronts the weakened "villain" himself, and finally gets all depressed about the sad fate of this very "villain". Not of the fembot, but of Flint, very specifically and explicitly.

Man-crush? Projected self-pity? You decide. But McCoy is clearly completely misguided in believing that Kirk pines over a girl. Spock knows better, and does the right thing to help his friend cope.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[jayrath]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

I think everyone is missing the point. The episode paints a picture of a villain with some very good qualities. It also paints a picture of a hero with some very bad qualities -- as Kirk points out toward the end. Both are flawed.

That's good writing.

I really don't care for the "forget" thing at the end, but that's for a different thread.

 

[Timo]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Hmm... Perhaps. Although complex adversaries and flawed heroes were nothing new to Star Trek, either.

It's pretty trivial to give a villain an intriguing backstory - this time one with a scope of millennia. It's a bit more demanding to squeeze an interesting portrayal of a complex villain into the allocated 50 minutes or so. Khan, too, had an intriguing backstory. But Khan also came alive during his onscreen minutes of fame. With Flint, the delivery is slightly weaker, the character slightly less charming. But only slightly.

Also, the challenges posed at our heroes by the two supermen might be considered opposite ones. Khan was idolized at first but his evil qualities were found out later on. Flint is a mystery and a menace at first, but Kirk eventually comes to admire the fellow. Both arcs feature a cathartic fistfight, but with Khan, it is something the villain initiates against the hero, and the last hurrah in his ongoing campaign of violence against Kirk; with Flint, it's something Kirk strives for, in order to break through the shell of superior untouchability of the ancient adversary.

Against Khan, our heroes held a unified front (save for the multi-traitress McGivers who ultimately saved the day). Against Flint, both McCoy and Spock pursue courses of action that prove utterly fruitless, while Kirk's weird "romance" actually crashes through all the plot obstacles despite both the supporting heroes' conviction that he has gone utterly mad.

With all the mirror images, "Methuselah" and "Space Seed" actually reinforce each other in an intriguing manner. The paring down of characters and plot elements for "Methuselah" makes it less rich a story, though, perhaps more formulaic in the worst traditions of ancient Greek symbolic storytelling. When watching through it, I feel the need to "keep it afloat" by remembering the moments of military-adventure verisimilitude and scifi pseudo-logic from the earlier seasons, and imagining that they are at work behind the simplified scenes of "Methuselah" as well.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Tracy]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Nice analysis TIMO

Picking up on the point you made about how SPOCK and KIRK were used in this episode

And when one actually examines their use against the stated goal of securing the Ryetalyn (the McGuffin of the story),...

SPOCK who is most 'on par' with FLYNT is not used as a counter-force to the opposition, but rather is used to ferret out the mystery.

And KIRK is Dancing with the Robot-Babe.

And yet,... while all this is going on, it makes it feel like the only one who is actually focused on the task at hand is the kindly Doctor.

If one subscribes to the idea that FLYNT represents some sort of Ubermensh,... and if one also subscribes to the theory that the trio of KIRK-SPOCK-McCOY represent the Ego-Id-Super Ego,.. then would not it have made for a better "play" to have the characters confront FLYNT on their assigned symbolic/functional level, and resolve the conflic and achieve the goal THAT WAY, rather than 'fight over a girl'?

Thoughts?

 

[Timo]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

"Good" plays are incredibly boring. TV writing is formulaic enough already, without somebody dusting off outdated theories that only loosely relate to entertainment and don't really work in practice. What we got instead was realistic insofar as the Trek universe is concerned: Spock is the voice of reason, but also the one with insatiable curiosity; McCoy thinks he sees the huma(e) viewpoint, but his tactical eye is not on par with Kirk's; and Kirk himself feels no obligation to explain himself to his fellow officers (and unnecessarily make them conform to his viewpoint), but thinks outside the box and eventually sees the solution. Spock and McCoy are blinded by their professionalism in their respective fields - but once again, it's Kirk's field of competence that leads to things getting done. All in perfect harmony with the idea of our hero as plain and simple, what-you-see-is-what-you-get trio of military officers who work well together thanks to years of experience.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Forbin]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Watched it last night to refresh my memory.
In addition to what we've been saying, another scene struck me as odd.

After the bad rytalyn batch resulted in unusable medicine, McCoy and Flynt went out to get more, leaving Kirk and Spock at the house. Kirk then tells Spock to hang out in the drawing room while he, Kirk, goes to the lab to try to see if there's a way to fix the bad batch of medicine.

Um?

The captain (not a scientist, not a chemist) tells his science officer to hang out while he tries to figure out a complex chemical formula?

Then Kirk just meanders around the lab and stares uselessly at things until Rayna walks in, showing that it was just an awkward way for the writer to get them alone together and move the plot along.

I didn't notice things like this when I was 12.

 

[Captain Tracy]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Forbin - Exactly.

 

[Timo]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Well, Kirk's very next line is that he suspects Flint of foul play - for the first time, really. He might have been speaking more to Flint (or his walls-with-ears) than to Spock when justifying his decision to go snooping in Flint's lab...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Tracy]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

or to dishonestly isolate his character to set up an "in two" scene with Kirk and the hot babe.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Oh well, we get KIRK, or So-and-so, falls in love... again.

To be fair, it's actually a Trek first. Previously, Kirk had not been himself when coming under romantic influence - we'd seen him succumb to amnesia and to a devious plot involving an entire fake starship and debilitating illness, but never to a woman.

Edith Keeler..?

 

[Ssosmcin]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Y'know, I could stomach the sudden love angle. i guess it can happen. But the obligatory fistfight at the end.

It wouldn't have been so bad if the fight wasn't so lame. It wasn't even a fistfight, it was "throw Kirk around" sort of thing. Watching Shatner geting his ass handed to him by James Daly in his Prince Valiant get-up was depressing. It should have remained a battle of wills, with less love and more arguing for Rayna's right to be free. But it's easy to do a hindsight rewrite 45 years later.

 

[plynch]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

Y'know, I could stomach the sudden love angle. i guess it can happen. But the obligatory fistfight at the end.

It wouldn't have been so bad if the fight wasn't so lame. It wasn't even a fistfight, it was "throw Kirk around" sort of thing. Watching Shatner geting his ass handed to him by James Daly in his Prince Valiant get-up was depressing. It should have remained a battle of wills, with less love and more arguing for Rayna's right to be free. But it's easy to do a hindsight rewrite 45 years later.

True. Trek was thoughtful action-adventure, and that often means fights. Why would Flynt be SO physically stronger. He even mentions that he is. 5,000 years of lifting weights adds up?

Every Trek has quibble-ables, though, and overall, this one is better than most in my opinion.

2. Other than Edith, I can't think of Kirk actually falling in love. Wait, Miramaneee, but that's not exactly Kirk. Other than that, he's kissin' em, but not really in love, right?

 

[Ssosmcin]

Re: 'Requiem for Methuselah' - FLYNT - Most fleshed out villian on TOS

I don't mind so much that Flint was stronger, but it was just such a badly coordinated fight. Kirk did better against Khan. He got no real licks in and Flint didn't demonstrate any skill other than being able to toss off Kirk.



In regards to his love objects, we met women he was formerly in love with, so people may have counted those in there. Ruth, Areel Shaw, Janet Wallace and Janice Lester. Plus we heard about that little blonde lab tech he nearly married. So while we saw Kirk fall in love twice (and Kirok once), we heard about a few others. The rest, the steel bra wearing thralls and stuff, were all part of whatever need he had at the moment.