Replicating 'gold-pressed latinum'

[Nebusj]

nx1701g said:

Nebusj said:
Memory Alpha makes many claims and not all of them are as grounded in what has appeared on-screen as may be desired.

I don't doubt that it may not have been in the episode listed (I also checked on Wikipedia and there isn't a citation for it). I do remember Quark on a rant about Latinum in an episode and complaining because it couldn't be replicated (he hit the replicator with a bar rag in the process), but I'm not sure it was in WM4M myself either. I'll have to go looking through the DVDs.

Well, for what it's worth, a Google site search on the script archive at twiztv.com for ``latinum replicate'' (not the phrase, just the two words) turns up five scripts, none of which have any discussion of the replicability of latinum. ``latinum replica'' turns up for hits, with similar nothing relevant. ``latinum replicator'' gives me 29 hits, but none seem to even put the two words in the same scene. I admit the weaknesses of this research method, but for something that's going to involve fifteen minutes of work it's probably the best you'll get.

For what it's worth in ``Life Support'' Dr Bashir mentions one of his instructors felt there was a ``spark of life'' which can't be replicated, and he mentions this as a hazard of replicating brain tissue for Vedek Bareil. But that feeling seems to be the semi-mystical explanation of Bashir's instructor, reflecting the difficulty of replicating brain tissue in such a way as to remove death as anything more than a mild inconvenience from the Trek universe. I didn't come across other mentions of things that can't be replicated but I didn't specifically search for it either.

 

[bentbastard]

Tanx for input. Having watching "Who mourns ..." and the entire DS9 series many!! times i can guarantee (lets say 90%) that its never mentioned (at least in my Australian DVD versions) that GPL cannot be replicated.

I do like the 'spin' suggestion. A physcial resolution seems the best. But if the Heisenberg Compensators work as they should, shouldnt they 'compensate' for some quantum specificity? *ponders*

The 'stamp' suggestion doesnt really hold, as someone noted. Especially after Morn regurgitates some.

Perhaps, more than just being incased in Gold, the 'pressing' process may somehow make it unreplicatable?

Remember, Tuvok (Voy: "Caretaker") says to Neelix that replicators wont make Starfleet Uniforms and the uniform copies in "Live Fast and Prosper" (Voy) were shoddy (trans. bad).

keep the comments coming ...

 

[WalkinMan]

IMO the uniform restriction is hard-wired so that no one can casually create a uniform and impersonate someone, but the replicators physically can make them, and do in fact, given the proper authorization. Tuvok's comments were to prevent Neelix from copying a uniform for himself.

As for GPL, I am of the opinion that given the proper scans and molecular data, a replicator can recreate approximations of GPL. However, it's quite possible that the Ferengi and other capitalist societies that still use cash/coinage have adapted a counterfeit-detection system. Real GPL, naturally harvested and mechanically refined, retains a measure of randomness and a unique quality that is lost in replicated versions. Any simple 'calculator' or 'cash register' can spot fake/replicated latinum.

Replicated GPL would be easily exposed as a fake, even if the replicator were programmed to add some variety to its output. It kinda reminds me of the 'replicative fading' tha occurs in Trek with repeat cloning. Perhaps the Ferengi Consortium has a strong prohibition as well against any sneaky Ferengi who tries to replicate GPL...

Kind of like a quantification of how Picard prefers the 'real stuff' over replicate wine, etc.

 

[Timo]

I love the idea that GPL is not unrepicable, but simply maximally difficult to replicate well. The complex structure comes out all wrong if you try to create it with a garden-variety replicator - and more significantly, the wrongness is engineered to be maximally easy to detect. The Ferengi hear it in the way the slips clink against a table, or taste it on the surface of the strip (actually, it might also be that Quark is not tasting, but rather listening to the sound his teeth make against the GPL!).

Any replicator would create a near-perfect approximation of any physical currency, but for GPL, and GPL only, near-perfect isn't enough. And while a better than regular replicator can create perfect GPL, the whole point is that if one has a high quality replicator, one no longer needs to counterfeit any GPL.

This is pretty much how it works with dollar bills, too. You can't make profit by forging them with a photocopier, and it's far too much effort to use the sort of technology that would allow the forgeries to pass muster. Not impossible (because the good guys with their legal equipment can print dollars in the first place!), merely too much effort to make forgery pay.

However, even this take on GPL fails to explain "Who Mourns", where the latinum retains its worth even when it is extracted from the intricate gold matrix. Indeed, the matrix itself is explicitly stated to be worthless, so it can't be our analogy to watermarks and other contemporary means of making the dollar difficult to counterfeit. If the matrix were the future watermark, then yes, it would be worthless as such - but a cache of such "watermarks" would be an immense fortune to a hopeful forger like Quark, who could then use it to create passable GPL bricks himself.

Could it be that the latinum liquid, inserted into whatever matrix, in itself is easy to acoustically identify when poorly replicated? Sounds difficult to believe, and pardon the pun. How could a liquid have unique acoustic properties? Even after it has been turned into a brooch or a faucet somehow? But if that were true, it would match all the evidence accumulated so far...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[WalkinMan]

Interesting thoughts! Very fascinating, and the analogy to real-life currency creation is a good one. Indeed, if you can afford a 'super replicator' you have no need to replicate GPL.

 

[TeutonicNights]

I find it interesting that in little Green men, Quark compares Latinum to Dilithium ("precious minerals") as possible currencies of the Earthlings.
If a special Ferg production method was needed to give the Latinum its value, this wouldn't really make sense.

As for replication: I think we don't really know how the advanced replicators (like the ones Eddington steals) work. Maybe you need precious materials, delicate reformulation processes or alot of energy to produce Latinum, which would nullify your advantage of having a replicator.

It could also be a rare substance that was created aeons ago by some weird anomaly, something that doesn't belong in our universe, or time and therefore can't be replicated.

 

[P0sitr0nic]

I cant say where I remember hearing it, but I DO remember DS9 making mention of the unreplicatibility of Latinum. The gold that its pressed into is worthless, except as a container for the liquid latinum.

 

[FordSVT]

The episode of TNG where those 2D creatures were making Troi crazy, wasn't there some mention that certain substances can not be replicated?

Also, the DS9 episode featuring "It's a FAAAAKE!" clearly demonstrates that some things can not be 100% accurately replicated.

 

[Guartho]

Well now I have to watch Who Mourns for Morn again. For now count me in the camp that thinks Quark said it was not replicatable in that episode. I remember having an "Oh... ok" moment watching that ep.

 

[Timo]

The episode of TNG where those 2D creatures were making Troi crazy, wasn't there some mention that certain substances can not be replicated?

"The Loss"? Doesn't seem so... Although there was mention of the ship having lost the ability to create certain things (heavy elements) when she was plagued by power problems in "Night Terrors", another case of Troi going crazy.

Also, the DS9 episode featuring "It's a FAAAAKE!" clearly demonstrates that some things can not be 100% accurately replicated.

But that wasn't the fault of replicators as such. Sisko was lacking a plausible template for a "secret Dominion meeting recording". If such a template had existed, he could have created thirty more with a good replicator, but the first one still required skill rather than brute replicating power...

Perhaps more relevant would be "Data's Day" where the Romulan agent replicated some blood and tissue to fake her death, and the replicated stuff didn't pass muster. Surely this secret agent should have had access to top quality replicators, so the failure would be inherent even in the best hardware. (Or then the Romulans simply underestimated their Federation opponents again, and settled for less than perfect fakery.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[timmy84]

Its been stated that replicating stuff isn't cheap when it comes to power. Also, their are varying levels of replicators. So replicating latinum may just be to expensive.

Look at counterfeiting today. Nobody counterfeits ones and fives even though most retailers don't check them to be real. They instead counterfeit twenties the most. The reason is counterfeiting a one isn't cost effective.

Latinum may be so complicated a material that its replication may cost more then the quantity being created.

As a side note, has it ever been stated latinums use other then currency. Gold is valuable, but it also has uses as a conductor. Gold didn't lose value in the future because it became more plentiful, but because it serves no purpose. Thats an assumption on my part, but thats how value is put on things.

 

[Timo]

Latinum supposedly has decorative value, much like gold, because there are references to jewelry and other decorative objects being made of latinum.

Then again, it may be that latinum is not particularly decorative (being a liquid and all), but that it is a mark of status to insert some latinum in your brooches and whatnot - much like it would be a mark of status to hang the scalp of the enemy on one's neck, despite it being ugly as hell.

FWIW, the Rules of Acquisition credit latinum with the following qualities:

"Rare" (57)
"Durable" (102, 229)
"Glowy" (123 - noncanon!)

That's pretty much it. But "rare", "durable" and "glowy" are pretty much how it works with gold, too: these qualities make for nice jewelry. The fact that gold is chemically interesting for a number of technological applications is rather incidental.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Upper pylon 3]

I believe it was established that Ketracel White could not be replicated.

Re: the conversation in Caretaker, I don't think Tuvok was implying that the replicator could not replicate a uniform, but, that it would not make one for Neelix. Also the dinosaur species (can't remember their name, Voth maybe?)in Distant Origin said that Hogan's uniform was replicated.

 

[Timo]

I believe it was established that Ketracel White could not be replicated.

More like, it was inferred that Dominion technology doesn't allow the Jem'Hadar to manufacture the substance for themselves in any appreciable quantity.

No direct "establishing" of unreplicability is mentioned anywhere. Bashir apparently creates the substance easily enough in "The Abandoned", after Dax and Odo ask him whether he can replicate it - but we don't know if he actually uses a replicator for that.

Anyway, the problems Bashir faces in "The Abandoned" are related to identifying the compound, and not to producing it once it has been identified. When our heroes find bottles of the stuff in the wreckage where the Jem'Hadar child was also found, the supply of white is no longer mentioned to be a problem. (Although whether this means that Bashir can create more of the stuff, or that Bashir thinks Starfleet will be through with the boy by the time the original bottles run out...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Danoz]

Remember that in Voyager the doctor's mobile emitter technology could not be replicated because of its complexity. There are many technologies and materials that cannot simply be replicated in Star Trek-- hence the need for trading materials and tools. Replication technology is the "resequencing" at the molecular level. In Voyager they ration their replicating energy and use that as a kind of trading currency among the crew (suggesting that even the process or materials used for replication themselves have value-- or that creating certain metals requires more energy or material). Remember that the latinum in Morn's stomach was just as valuable in his stomach as it would be in its gold casing-- and there were no serial numbers or ways of identifying it. Latinum is valuable in the Star Trek universe precicely because it is latinum and used as an intergalactic currency-- if it were easily replicatable it would be as worthless as its gold casing.


PS. I think MA was right to source "Who Mourns for Morn" as a source of saying that it is unreplicatable, because if it were that episode wouldn't make any sense. It's definitely implied in the writing (as the gold itself is worthless).

 

[Timo]

But the fact remains that no substance has ever been said to be unreplicable.

No device, either: EMH himself believes that replication of his emitter would be a matter of time only, if it were conveyed to Starfleet Command ("Renaissance Man"). As a point of comparison, the highly complex and basically undecipherable probability-altering devices in DS9 "Rivals" were replicated simply by feeding one example into the machine and pressing a button.

For the seeming scarcity of certain things, we may look for explanations such as relative difficulty of replication, or relative difficulty of scanning the target carefully enough for replication, all leading to it being uneconomical to use replication for obtaining the item or substance. But it doesn't really make sense to claim that anything would be completely unreplicable if the 24th century state of the art is available. If there were such a thing as a truly unreplicable substance or structure, we'd already have heard of it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[nx1701g]

Maybe the replicators are designed not to be able to replicate materials? Maybe Starfleet has designed their replicators - for example - not to be able to replicate scarce resources. Just a thought though.