Relativity makes no sense

[Timewalker]

Any sort of system in which you get punished for crimes you haven't even committed yet, is terror.

So we say. But by the 29th century, there's likely to be an entirely new system of law, which would be incomprehensible to us today. Time travel is an integral part of 29th century life, so there is going to be a wholesale reinvention of law and police procedure.

We're interpreting their society with our biases. We assume that it's obviously impossible to be arrested for crimes we have yet to commit. That's true for US, but not necessarily for the 29th century. I'm not saying their system is automatically right, just that we might not have as much of a right to judge them as we think.

I recommend reading Up the Line by Robert Silverberg. It's a time travel novel where the protagonist, Jud Eliot, is hired as a Time Courier to escort groups of tourists "up the line" (back in time) to witness notable historical events that happened in/around the city of Constantinople. One of the legal issues that becomes very important is what happens if somebody commits "timecrime" - if it's serious enough, the guilty person is executed.

Example: on one time tour, a tourist decides to kill Jesus so Christianity never happens. He poisons Jesus at age 11. A Time Courier later escorts a tour group to see the Crucifixion... and Jesus isn't there. So the Time Patrol (the law enforcement side of the Time Service) has to figure out what happened. When they do, they make a video record of the murderer poisoning Jesus (for evidence), and then arrest him. But to make sure that history gets put back together properly, they have to make the murder un-happen. So they arrest the murderer at an earlier time, before he poisons Jesus. It doesn't matter that to that version of the murderer he hasn't done anything; there's a video record bearing witness that he did/would do it. The novel acknowledges a whole plethora of paradoxes and admits that it's a difficult and headache-inducing thing to try to figure out.

Therefore, I didn't have a problem with one version of Braxton being arrested for something he hadn't done yet, because the proof existed that another version of him did/would have committed the crime.

Also, it's made clear in Up the Line and also in Poul Anderson's excellent Time Patrol series that just because you know you'll succeed at doing something in the future, that doesn't excuse you from going through all the necessary steps in the present to accomplish that goal.

 

[hux]

Nope. That interpretation could have worked, but unfortunately there's a greenish "seven-vision" shot that shows no sign of the weapon where there was one in a similar shot in timeframe-1.

but you could still interpret that first shot of the weapon as simply a visual aid to push the story along (you don't necessarily need to see it again)

It's a good enough explanation for me

Now back to the weird paradoxical time crap (my work here is done)

 

[Guy Gardener]

Parallel time tracks = almost identical baby mirror universes.

I'm just curious if TIC walls off alternate timelines allowing them their own life, or kills all pretenders before there becomes a mess of cross-pollination?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Punishing somebody for crimes they have not committed makes perfect sense, assuming of course, free will is an illusion. If not, then up to the point he commits the crimes he retains the possibility that he will decide otherwise.

If time travel exists there does exist a necessity to be able to stop people from committing crimes. In the case of Braxton however it is problematic because he committed his crimes due to a medical condition he had not contracted yet.

Like, if I go back in time with the intention of murdering somebody, it makes sense to stop me before I do so. But if I go back in time then contract a neurological disease which causes me to kill somebody, the guilty version of me wasn't even responsible. The correct course of action should have been to stop Braxton from going gaga. Braxton should have been able to plead Not Guilty By Reason of Future Insanity.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Punishing somebody for crimes they have not committed makes perfect sense, assuming of course, free will is an illusion. If not, then up to the point he commits the crimes he retains the possibility that he will decide otherwise.

Free will and time travel are entirely compatible. If I am about to make a decision about something, and you have travelled forward in time to see what decision I made, that doesn't change the fact that I made the decision of my own free will. You did not tell me what to do, you didn't influence me in any way. The fact that you have 'inside knowledge' of what I'll do doesn't negate the fact that I still chose to do it.

Besides, as "Relativity" makes clear, all versions of Braxton will be integrated prior to his trial. So there won't be any version of Braxton that didn't commit those crimes, because they were all combined together into one. The only Braxton that stands trial is one who did commit exactly what he was arrested for.

Also, it's made clear in Up the Line and also in Poul Anderson's excellent Time Patrol series that just because you know you'll succeed at doing something in the future, that doesn't excuse you from going through all the necessary steps in the present to accomplish that goal.

Somebody might want to explain that to Bill & Ted.

 

[Guy Gardener]

As an officer of the temporal integrity Commission, Braxton would be operating under limited rights, just like any one who joins the armed forces today. So the internal policy that he is a part of means that he is aware of the possiblity of this happening and has decided to accept he possibility of baing jailed for time crimes many many years ago like a kid signing a waver before going on a roller coaster that lasts for 20 years (mariage! I just described marriage!).

Hunting down civilian comitting timecrimes however is more touchy.

Changing time effects all space in the universe.

So %99 percept of time criminals must be from foreign space in the universe, yet Earth has the balls to madate behaviour on species a billion, billion light years away.

There are walls in space inbtween all the empires who would not be happy that the 29th century Federaion thinks that they are the boss of them?

Do the temporal powers divide up time like they the regular powers divide up space?

Exact bodies given absolute power universally over specific centuries and only those centuries, which would explain the need to leave time and construct cities outside of time so that your native empire doesn't age out and come under the thrall of a different temporal power?

Or do different Temporal powers claim different entire timelines universally forever and irgnore the paralleled times existing either side as foreign nations?

 

[Enterprise1701]

NOW WAIT A MINUTE!!!!!! If the weapon is not there because it hasn't been planted yet, then why WAS it there in timeframe-1 (Drydock). If it is visible, but out of phase, in timeframe-1 and 3, why is it suddenly NOT visible in timeframe-2?!? Shouldn't it be there as well, but out of phase until planted?

Woah, that's an oversight I've never thought of.

Now Janeway and Seven-2 interrupt Braxton-2 while he's planting the weapon. He escapes with the weapon to timeframe-1 and later to timeframe-3, where Seven-3 (timeframe-3 Seven) finally takes the weapon from Braxton-2. Before he had the chance to plant it!!!! Janeway is recruited to the Future...

NOW WAIT A MINUTE!!!!! The weapon was NOT planted in the Kazon attack because Janeway and Seven-2 just prevented that. Seven-3 has the weapon and Braxton-2 is in custody in the future. THEN WHY is Janeway sent back to trimeframe-2 to take the weapon from him AGAIN???? Isn't that unnecessary at that point?

Relativity's efforts to stop Voyager's destruction led to the final time-traveling Seven of Nine to be significantly noticed in various time periods. By sending time-traveling Janeway to stop Braxton in the first place, all the times Seven altered history would be erased from history. Based on the explanations provided by DTI: Watching the Clock, the timeship Relativity probably had phase discriminators to protect themselves from timeline changes. That way the crew could remember everything they had learned so far despite multiple historical alterations and keep track of all the Braxtons. Also, the novel mentions that the Temporal Integrity Commission likes to micromanage the timeline.

I won't start about the "reintegration" of the multiple Sevens.

What someone else already said about "Tomorrow is Yesterday".

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As an officer of the temporal integrity Commission, Braxton would be operating under limited rights, just like any one who joins the armed forces today. So the internal policy that he is a part of means that he is aware of the possiblity of this happening and has decided to accept he possibility of baing jailed for time crimes

Excellent point.

 

[Drone]

The episode starts in drydock with Seven trying to locate the Weapon. She finds it, but it is "out of phase" because it is the wrong timeframe. She communicates the location (Deck 4, Section 39) to Braxton. Then she's killed during transport to the Future. I will call her Seven-1.

Braxton has to recruit her again from the Present. We see Seven in the hour leading up to Voyager's destruction. There are temporal distortions. Seven and B'Elanna locate the weapon. Some time after that, Seven is beamed to the Future. I will call her Seven-2.

NOW WAIT A MINUTE!!!!! If Present-Seven already knows the location of the weapon, why did the previous Seven (Seven-1) try to locate it in the first place?

How do we know when Seven-1 was recruited? If that happened before the fateful hour, then obviously she would have no idea about the weapon or its location. This might beg the question as to why Braxton didn't shanghai Seven the first time as close to Voyager's sendoff as possible to glean any possible information that they had been able to develop after detecting the advance effects of the weapon's activation.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They said there was already a number of Seven's who had died before we starting following the story.

 

[propita]

Endgame bugged me more with a lack of Temporal Policing. Are Starfleet less bothered with timeline hijinks if it helps them into a more powerful position?

That’s my viewpoint! They picked the timeline where THEY are in charge of time travel--and make sure that no other timeline develops where they are not in charge.

Add in that StarFleet was policing Earth with the shape shifters in DS9, and you got one helluva militarized society.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Borg Technology was used to travel in time within this story which means that the Borg Time Police were meant to stop her... Unfortunately under some renderings of the facts (Novels? What novels?) in these final episodes, Janeway destroyed all the Borg entirely, and they are now extinct and there are no more Borg Time Police anymore in the future to stop her.

 

[Isolinear]

The episode starts in drydock with Seven trying to locate the Weapon. She finds it, but it is "out of phase" because it is the wrong timeframe. She communicates the location (Deck 4, Section 39) to Braxton. Then she's killed during transport to the Future. I will call her Seven-1.

Braxton has to recruit her again from the Present. We see Seven in the hour leading up to Voyager's destruction. There are temporal distortions. Seven and B'Elanna locate the weapon. Some time after that, Seven is beamed to the Future. I will call her Seven-2.

NOW WAIT A MINUTE!!!!! If Present-Seven already knows the location of the weapon, why did the previous Seven (Seven-1) try to locate it in the first place?

How do we know when Seven-1 was recruited? If that happened before the fateful hour, then obviously she would have no idea about the weapon or its location. This might beg the question as to why Braxton didn't shanghai Seven the first time as close to Voyager's sendoff as possible to glean any possible information that they had been able to develop after detecting the advance effects of the weapon's activation.

How could the previous Sevens have been recruited before Seven-1? You can't pull her from the timeline at 1:15, when you've pulled her out already previously at 1:10. She wouldn't be there anymore.
However, you can pull her out from 1:05, then the next one at 1:00, then 0:55 and so on.

Therefore the previous Sevens must have been later incarnations who also knew about the weapons' location!

Logic. Flawless Logic.

 

[Guy Gardener]

By the logic of the moral protesters here, if somebugger through timetravel figures out that they are going to be murdered on a specific date and time by a specific person, and they request to be put in protective custody by the Time Police, the Time Police will not do it, because it's immoral to protect people who are not yet in danger.

 

[Timewalker]

Which "Time Police"?

I've been contemplating writing a fanfic where Silverberg's Time Couriers, Anderson's Time Patrol, and Star Trek's DTI all run into each other. Considering Anderson's Time Patrol is actually run by the Danellians (the next version of humanity, over a million years in the future from 20th century reckoning), that brand of "time police" would win out.

Greg Cox wrote a novel related to Silverberg's Up the Line, btw. I haven't read it yet, though - been saving it for a treat.

 

[Drone]

How could the previous Sevens have been recruited before Seven-1? You can't pull her from the timeline at 1:15, when you've pulled her out already previously at 1:10. She wouldn't be there anymore.
However, you can pull her out from 1:05, then the next one at 1:00, then 0:55 and so on.

Therefore the previous Sevens must have been later incarnations who also knew about the weapons' location!

Logic. Flawless Logic.

Let me be sure I was clear. When I used the term Seven-1, it was in the same sense that I think you did in the OP. That is the version of Seven witnessed in the opening of the episode and not either of the two iterations that preceeded her efforts, from Relativity's perspective. My point was to simply question the timeframe of the former's extraction and not to compare it in any way with that experienced by the latter ones.


IIRC, there was no mention or even clue as to when any of these Sevens were recruited as obviously only the circumstance of the final version was directly shown on screen. As to the argument you posited in your response, I suppose it makes sense if the events are taken to occur in a linear construct in this jungle jim rendering of a time manipulation story. But consider this. The Seven that was the last one that Braxton brought into play, was taken bare seconds before Voyager's destruction. Are you suggesting that Relativity had the chops to more finely tune its calculations so that Seven's predecessors left the ship at perhaps 2 seconds, 1, or even milliseconds before the explosion? I don't see the evidence that their grasp on the mechanics involved was so precise.


Would ping pong playing Seven, who encountered her doppelganger in the Mess Hall simply have ceased to exist at the same instant that the latter had been removed from the ship? NO. I think a plausible explanation, if one can be offered, is that the action of the recruitment of each Seven was wiped clean, reset if you will, by virtue of their failure in preventing Voyager being obliterated at the moment that that actually occurred in each instance, and would have no impact on the continuing integrity of Seven's presence on Present Voyager. This scenario would only be altered, as it was at the end, by a successful completion of the mission, which then necessitated something having to be done that was consequential to Voyager Seven, her re-integration with Relativity Seven as mentioned by Ducane.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

They picked the timeline where THEY are in charge of time travel--and make sure that no other timeline develops where they are not in charge.

Of course. Why shouldn't they?

Somebody has to be in charge of time travel, after all, since it is so uniquely dangerous. It would be foolish to just let anybody run around loose with temporal technology. They could literally destroy everything. So it's logical to place some kind of controls on it.

 

[Mr Pointy Ears]

There were too many errors in this episode but the main one was the writing.

 

[JarodRussell]

They picked the timeline where THEY are in charge of time travel--and make sure that no other timeline develops where they are not in charge.

Of course. Why shouldn't they?

Time travel morals. What gives them the right to decide that their timeline is the absolute right one? Someone in the farer future might make that decision as well, so there are two factions fighting over the "correct" timeline. Good luck taking that issue to the time travel court, lol.

There were also many episodes where there were natural causes for timeline changes. The prophets changed the timeline as well. So that alone makes the idea of "being in charge of time travel" pretty ridiculous.


The greatest timeline fuckup is VOY: Endgame and then the Destiny novel trilogy. The Destiny trilogy gives the time cops every reason to annhilate Admiral Janeway from her entire existence. She selfishly saved 20-30 lives and skipped a few years of traveling home, for the price of BILLIONS of dead Federation citizens. But the cops don't show up.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

They picked the timeline where THEY are in charge of time travel--and make sure that no other timeline develops where they are not in charge.

Of course. Why shouldn't they?

Time travel morals. What gives them the right to decide that their timeline is the absolute right one? Someone in the farer future might make that decision as well, so there are two factions fighting over the "correct" timeline.

Then let them fight.

Like I said: Somebody has to be in charge of time travel. You can't just let anyone use it. All of creation could be destroyed. There has to be order, stability to the process.