Redrawing Kirk's career timeline

[Duncan MacLeod]

But Kirk's world of starship captains doesn't admit... *slap* Ow.

I always felt that what she was saying by that was that Kirk's personal world as a starship captain had no women. That he would not commit to a serious relationship. Mainly because the idea that women couldn't be starship captains struck me as ridiculous even back in the 70s.

 

[Poltargyst]

But I think it's true. I don't think there were any female starship captains. Janice says it, Kirk doesn't disagree. I know a lot of effort goes into explaining that away, but I say the Occam's Razor answer is that these statements are simply true as stated. TOS was made in the 1960's. Were there any female aircraft carrier captains at that time? Would a 1960's viewing audience be surprised that there were no female starship captains, or would they expect that?

My theory:

Earth of Star Trek's 1960's was much the same as our Earth of the 1960's including our ideas about gender roles. Over the decades, our Earth has progressed to where female leaders are no longer a big deal. But Star Trek's Earth had a number of challenges that our Earth didn't have including WW III, eugenics wars, worldwide devastation, etc. I say that these catastrophes set Star Trek's Earth back in a lot of ways and kept them in a 1960's mindset for a lot longer than occurred on our Earth.

It wasn't until just before Pike's career that women began attending Starfleet Academy. It wasn't until a little after that women were graduating the Academy and getting assigned to Starships. It wasn't until right before The Cage that women started getting the highly prestigious bridge assignments causing Pike to state he was having a hard time getting used to women on the bridge, Number One notwithstanding.

By Kirk's time as Captain things had progressed a little. Women were commonly seen in bridge duties. But still, as of Who Mourns For Adonais, we see Kirk and McCoy bemoan the fact that Lt. Palamas is a good officer, and it will just be a matter of time before she finds a man and retires from Starfleet, because that's what women were doing at that point.

Progress was still being made. We see that Ann Mulhall was a Lt. Commander. She must have been in the vanguard of women approaching command positions.

Given this context, I don't find it strange at all that there were no female starship captains as of TI, and there may indeed have been a glass ceiling for women to overcome before there would be.

But we know that in the coming decades as we begin to see female captains and admirals.

I think Janice's statement is what it is.

But what about ENT and DISC and SNW?

RETCON

Actually in the case of ENT I say the original timeline was screwed up by the temporal war. In the case of DISC and SNW I say "Parallel Universe."

 

[Nightowl1701]

By Kirk's time as Captain things had progressed a little. Women were commonly seen in bridge duties. But still, as of Who Mourns For Adonais, we see Kirk and McCoy bemoan the fact that Lt. Palamas is a good officer, and it will just be a matter of time before she finds a man and retires from Starfleet, because that's what women were doing at that point.

What women in the 1960's were doing at that point, maybe. (And bear in mind one of the writers of that one was a Marine during WWII and the Korean War.)

TOS was made in the 1960's. Were there any female aircraft carrier captains at that time? Would a 1960's viewing audience be surprised that there were no female starship captains, or would they expect that?

It took until 1990 for a woman (Lt. Cmdr Darlene Iskra) to captain a US Navy vessel, and until this very year for one (Capt. Amy Bauernschmidt) to command an aircraft carrier. The idea of a female captain of a 23rd century equivalent of such a vessel was simply off the table in 1967. Even if Gene or another writer had thought of it, neither the studio or the network would have allowed it - any more than they allowed Number One.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Even if Gene or another writer had thought of it, neither the studio or the network would have allowed it - any more than they allowed Number One.

I hope you're not resurrecting that old myth.
They objected to the actress, not the character.

 

[Nightowl1701]

I hope you're not resurrecting that old myth.
They objected to the actress, not the character.

No, not the character, or Number One would have never left the page and gone before the cameras to begin with. But a female captain, I do think, would have been a step too far for them. Lucille Ball would have been all for it, but the NBC/Paramount execs... nah, don't see it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

No, not the character, or Number One would have never left the page and gone before the cameras to begin with. But a female captain, I do think, would have been a step too far for them.

I think you might be selling them short.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Yes, Kirk is commanding the Lydia Sutherland which is named for a starship captain during the Romulan War.

I thought Lydia and Sutherland were two of the ships commanded by Horatio Hornblower.

 

[Neopeius]

But I think it's true. I don't think there were any female starship captains. Janice says it, Kirk doesn't disagree. I know a lot of effort goes into explaining that away, but I say the Occam's Razor answer is that these statements are simply true as stated. TOS was made in the 1960's. Were there any female aircraft carrier captains at that time? Would a 1960's viewing audience be surprised that there were no female starship captains, or would they expect that?

You could be right -- there are a lot of episodes of Trek that are "why a X can't be a starship captain".

On the other hand, one thing I am finding with SF in Trek's time is that lots of people do conceive women in expanded, 21st Century (and beyond) type roles. Many SF writers don't and keep writing reactionary stuff (*cough* Silverberg) but others have woman minority starship captains (*cough* Delany).

I have always felt "Turnabout" was supposed to be about "why a woman can't be a starship captain" but that message was undercut by 1) a messy script with other factors (Janice was crazy as a loon), and 2) the actors in the show didn't really seem to be on board with that message--they undersold their key lines on that regard. I will note that the Romulans had a female Commodore equivalent several episodes before, not to mention T'Pau (though women statesmen were period to the time -- viz. Gandhi and Margaret Chase Smith).

So it's like a dog whistle. Either interpretation is possible. Certainly, the folks of The Spaceflight Chronology (1980) heard the dog whistle took it as gospel. When I get to the 70s, I'll see what fanfic has to say about it.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Too bad Axanar got crushed. With Kate Vernon we would have had not just a female starship captain in the pre-Kirk era, but we would have had a hot female starship captain, with attitude.

I guess we also had Erica Hernandez in the Enterprise era, but by the time Enterprise was on, the combat exclusion for women in the U.S. mllitary had been gone for over a decade.

 

[Commishsleer]

Didn't GR virtually say Turnabout was about saying to his wife that women couldn't be in command? He'd forgotten about the Romulan Commander I suppose. I'm trying to remember other science fiction at the time. I can't remember a woman in command in science fiction books, TVs or movies - you know just wives or mothers or prizes. Even Ripley was only 2nd officer. .

 

[Noname Given]

You could be right -- there are a lot of episodes of Trek that are "why a X can't be a starship captain".

On the other hand, one thing I am finding with SF in Trek's time is that lots of people do conceive women in expanded, 21st Century (and beyond) type roles. Many SF writers don't and keep writing reactionary stuff (*cough* Silverberg) but others have woman minority starship captains (*cough* Delany).

I have always felt "Turnabout" was supposed to be about "why a woman can't be a starship captain" but that message was undercut by 1) a messy script with other factors (Janice was crazy as a loon), and 2) the actors in the show didn't really seem to be on board with that message--they undersold their key lines on that regard. I will note that the Romulans had a female Commodore equivalent several episodes before, not to mention T'Pau (though women statesmen were period to the time -- viz. Gandhi and Margaret Chase Smith).

So it's like a dog whistle. Either interpretation is possible. Certainly, the folks of The Spaceflight Chronology (1980) heard the dog whistle took it as gospel. When I get to the 70s, I'll see what fanfic has to say about it.

Everybody involved with making the episode new at that time it was the last episode of a failing Network series that never cracked the top 50 overall during the majority of its network run. It was just a job they had to finish; and I can guarantee you they all recognized the "quality" of the script compared to the overall story quality of the earlier seasons.