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Re-Watching DS9

Bad Thoughts said:
I think the cat-and-mouse game in part I works perfectly. Both characters appear to be masters at their craft, but how Odo exposes Garak seems natural without taking away from Garak's prowess.
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Yeah. Watching Madred in "Chain of Command" immediately after "The Die Is Cast", and using him as my baseline comparison, Garak has definitely gone soft.

Paul Dooley had some great acting, even with his eye movements, as you see Enabran Tain processing that this isn't the Garak he remembers, and it's a loose end he still needs to tie up.
 
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Lord Garth said:
"Improbable Cause"

Throughout this episode, I was looking for connections. To what had come before, what comes after, what happens to the side, and any type of metaphors.

When Garak and Bashir are talking about Shakespear's Julius Ceasar, Garak is highly critical of Shakespear and says that it was so predictable that Brutus would betray Ceasar that he could tell in the first act. Garak's main critique is that Ceasar couldn't see what was right in front of him. This comes back at the end of the episode when Garak can't see what's right in front of him when Enabran Tain offers him a position back at his side when Tain says he has no intention of going back into retirement.

Julius Ceasar isn't the only literary reference, there's also The Boy Who Cried Wolf and Bashir telling Garak that if someone keeps lying, no one will believe them even if they're telling the truth. I love when Garak spins it and says the real lesson is to never tell the same lie twice.

Odo is a great detective who pays attention to all the details. Odo deduces a Flaxian tried to have Garak killed but he also deduced that Garak took advantage of the Flaxian trying to have him killed. Garak was trying to stay ahead of Odo and, by getting Odo involved, he thought he could take control of the inevitable investigation. This was a weakness on Garak's part. He should've known that Odo would piece everything together and see right through all of his manipulation. My favorite scene in the entire episode is when Odo finally calls Garak out on his shit.

Another thing that Garak couldn't see was the possibility of Enabran Tain wanting to come out of retirement. Because he couldn't see it, he couldn't see that Tain would want to kill off anyone who could provide intelligence on him, including Garak.

As Odo is trying to see what he can find out about Garak and Tain's past relationship, it seems like he's on the track to finding out that Garak is Tain's son. It's not a conclusion I came to in 1995 when this episode aired and, two years later, in "In Puragtory's Shadow", I thought they were lying. I guess I would've been one of the villagers who wouldn't believe the boy who cried "Wolf!", though now I can see it in retrospect.

It was a masterstroke to have Odo use a contact from his Terok Nor days when trying to obtain more information about who really tried to have Garak killed. His Cardassian contact was appropriately mysterious and, given when this was made, it felt a little bit like DS9 was channeling The X-Files. Except The X-Files would've let all the questions about "something larger at play" linger in the background for several episodes and even seasons at a time. Here, we find out the plot within the same episode...

The Obsidian Order teaming up with the Tal'Shiar. Makes perfect sense. The Cardassian and Romulan Intelligence Agencies teaming up to stop the Dominion by eliminating the Founders. Something that Section 31 would try later on as well, through different means. Despite what I said in my April Fool's post about the Romulans never wanting to make the first move, the Tal'Shiar was always more willing to make a move than Romulan Imperial Fleet. A no better example of which can be seen in TNG's "Face of the Enemy".

When the episode ends and Garak agrees to join Tain, I think he does so not just because Tain is his father and he wants acceptance from him, but because he wants an escape from exile. He tried to make the best of his exile, but he always hated it. That's made perfectly clear to me in "The Wire". He doesn't care that Tain tried to have him killed, he wants back to his old life. Which, again, makes it hard to see what's clearly right in front of him.

Overall, this is a very well put together and thought-out episode. But it's set-up and missing a certain spark that I know will come in the next one. So, I give it a 9.

EDITED TO ADD: Just imagine the fight that would've broken out between Chang and Garak over Spakespear. "And let's slip THE DOGS OF WAR!!!!"
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Odo meeting his secret Cardassian contact reminds me also of All the President's Men when "Deep Throat" is telling Woodward and Bernstein that the burglary is a small piece of a much larger puzzle - but stubbornly insists that the reporters dig it up themselves rather than depending only on one anonymous source.

Yes, it's obvious that Garak will join Tain. Bashir may be okay to have lunch with, but he can't lift Garak's exile; Tain can.
 
"Spider in the Web" (B5 S2E6)

This episode had a lot of good ideas, but it was a bit of a slog to get through. What "Spider in the Web" gets right is deeper insight into Talia's character. Talia talks about what it was like growing up with Psi Corps. We get to meet Taro, who she views as a father figure, only to see killed off shortly after by Able. Able is a man who experiences his death over and over again in his mind, is kept alive by cybernetic implants, and is programmed to kill.

The other interesting thing for me, and especially now being a fan of For All Mankind, is seeing the struggle between Earth and Mars, the fight for Martian Independence, and the Free Mars movement. Someone wants to completely destabilize relations between Earth and Mars, and it turns out to be a woman in Psi Corps.

Meanwhile, Sheridan tells Garabaldi that he's been investigating a classified operation called Bureau 13 and it's taken him years to piece together what little information he has which he can't prove. This is obviously the start of something that's going to grow over time. Not knowing what's next, I can only conclude that Bureau 13 put a mole in Psi Corps, so they can throw Psi Corps under the bus if need be. To what end does starting a war between Earth and Mars serve Bureau 13, I don't know, but I'm interested to find out!

At one point, Sheridan -- who's still playing catchup -- asks Ivanova if Talia can be trusted. Even though Ivanova has always been bothered that Talia is all about Psi Corps, Sheridan tells her that he believes in looking at individuals not organizations. After that, Ivanova says that Talia can be trusted. Good to see Ivanova can distinguish and have that kind of insight, despite her personal feelings and experiences with Psi Corps.

One other thing that jumped out to me was one of Sheridan's superiors told him practicality is more important than principals. This shows how morally gray Earth Defense Force is, and how Sheridan is a contrast to that, since he clearly does believe in principals.

The rest of the episode, and Able on his killing spree doesn't do much for me. The hostage situation at the end is mildly entertaining. The ideas are what elevated "Spider in the Web". Overall, I give it a 7.
 
Sadly all of the Bureau 13 stuff brought up in the episode is ultimately a one-shot as, due to external considerations, they'll never appear directly or indirectly in the series again (AFAICR). That's kind of okay though, Psi Corps is plenty evil enough without help. As for the Talia stuff, that will become immaterial in due time for different reasons.
 
kkt said:
Yes, it's obvious that Garak will join Tain. Bashir may be okay to have lunch with, but he can't lift Garak's exile; Tain can.
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As obvious as that seems to us now, that's not how the episode was originally written. Improbable Cause was originally written as a standalone episode. In the first draft of the script, that data rod that Garak told Bashir to eat was actually real and the episode ended with Garak telling Tain to let Odo go or all the information on that rod would go public.

The writing staff hated it and played with different endings, and ultimately it was Michael Piller who suggested make it a two-parter. As Through the Looking Glass was already being prepped, they had to skip a week and film that before filming The Die is Cast.
 
Turtletrekker said:
As obvious as that seems to us now, that's not how the episode was originally written. Improbable Cause was originally written as a standalone episode. In the first draft of the script, that data rod that Garak told Bashir to eat was actually real and the episode ended with Garak telling Tain to let Odo go or all the information on that rod would go public.

The writing staff hated it and played with different endings, and ultimately it was Michael Piller who suggested make it a two-parter. As Through the Looking Glass was already being prepped, they had to skip a week and film that before filming The Die is Cast.
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...wow. That...that would have been very different, not just for the episode(s) but for events running throughout the rest of the series.
 
I was going to watch another Babylon 5 tonight, but Target Audience posted their Early Access Reaction to "Emissary" sooner than I expected, so I'll be watching that instead. Can't wait to see their take!

Totally unrelated, on July 20th, I'm celebrating the Apollo 11 Moon Landing by watching news/archival footage of it, the corresponding Mad Men episode with the Moon Landing, the first episode of For All Mankind... and an episode of Star Trek from 1969 just for fun. I've narrowed it down to three choices and I'm going to pick one: either "That Which Survives", "The Cloud Minders", or "All Our Yesterdays".
 
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Much like Jen Murray's reaction to "Emissary", it was interesting to see Target Audience's reaction. I've watched both reactions separately, just not both together yet. That's coming. I like getting to re-live Deep Space Nine through fresh perspectives. It's different from everyone's here where you know the series cold, or mine where my memory of it is/was just very faded.

But anyway... Babylon 5 is a series where I also have a fresh perspective, so...

"A Race Through Dark Places" (B5 S2E7)

I don't have too much to say about this episode. Let's get the B-Plot out of the way. I enjoyed watching Sheridan try to outthink the bureaucracy that wants to charge rent for his quarters and Ivanova's quarters. You'd never see that in Star Trek with the Federation, where they don't worry about money.

Then there's the A-Plot. Nice to see Bester again. Nice to see Garibaldi still hates his guts. Sheridan and Bester seem to be on neutral terms, which would be in Sheridan's best interests. He can't go all-out in a way that Garibaldi or Ivanova could. He has to appear to be rational/neutral.

This is a follow-up to "Mind War" from last season and we finally get to see some of the extent of what type of mental power Ironheart gave Talia before he departed. It's powerful enough to fool Bester into thinking all the "rogue" telepaths on Babylon 5 have been eliminated before the end of the episode. This episode ends with Talia essentially being the woman on the "inside" of Psi Corps, fighting for telepaths on the outside. There's no way this doesn't come to blows eventually, so I don't see Talia being part of Psi Corps forever. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what it looks like to me.

In the background are subplots that are commonly linked with their themes. Through Delenn, Sheridan gets to know the Minbari a little better. Through Talia, Ivanova gets to see Indvidual telepaths more as individuals.

Nothing Earth-shattering, but some good development for various characters. I give it a 7.
 
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I'm sure I mentioned this already, but I'm glad you watched Race Through Dark Places before Soul Mates instead of going in airdate order, as character arcs get weird when the chapters are shuffled.

There is another pair of stories later on in the season that work better flipped, with episode 17 "Knives" coming before episode 16. The good news is that season 4 is in entirely the right order, so you've got that to look forward to.
 
"Soul Mates" (B5 S2E8)

That killed some time. The things that stood out to me the most were the little character moments.

Delenn asking Ivanova for help with taking care of her tangled up hair. Whenever I dye my hair and stupidly use shampoo or soap instead of conditioner, it becomes a tangled mess afterwards. I just recently cut it to ear-length, but last month it was still past my shoulders. And one time, when it was tangled, I ended up getting a brush stuck in my hair, and I had to figure out how get it out. That was a nightmare and it took forever. So, I feel Delenn's pain. Literally.

Then there was everyone talking about Sheridan settling in. Everyone. Turning Sinclair randomly disappearing and being replaced into a joke. I got a kick out of that too. They don't want Sheridan randomly being re-assigned too! I've finally settled into having Sheridan as the main lead. So, I didn't even think about Sinclair until everyone brought it up. Because of that, I have to say: he's settling in! :devil:

Those are my two favorite parts of the episode. There's my third favorite part, but I'll save that for the end. But first things first...

The A-Plot with Londo's wives didn't do much for me. The B-Plot with the rouge (but not rogue, as it turns out) telepath trying to take Talia with him didn't do much for me either.

But then there's my third favorite part: Londo had to pick a wife to keep for some reason that I've already forgotten. He picks the one who's the most candid with him because he always knows where he stands with her.

And that's it. It killed some time. I give it a 6.

I'm so glad I didn't get very far with DS9 after I decided to not post reviews of B5 anymore. I only got four episodes in before I changed my mind, which has made it easy for me to get caught up now that I've decided to stay the course. A thank you to Real Life and a thank you to my discovering For All Mankind, both of which slowed things down.

One more B5, then it's back to alternating between DS9 and B5 again.
 
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Soul Mates seems to be one of those episodes where people are as likely to give it a 6 as they are to give it a 9. It's the first of two episodes to be written by Star Trek novelist Peter David, so it's got a bit of a different tone to it that people either appreciate or they don't. A style of comedy suited to Londo's three wives taking brutal shots at each other.

Personally I liked it. It's a nice cosy episode with G'Kar and Londo having fun tormenting each other and the smuggest asshole in the universe getting a punch to the face at the end. It's a bit weird that we got three Psi-Corps episodes in a row, but I'm sure Andrea Thompson appreciated it.
 
"The Coming of Shadows" (B5 S2E9)

The Shadow is shaping up to be like TNG's Borg and DS9's Dominion. The threat that's Out There. Sinclair sends a message to Garibaldi and to Delenn that he has operatives trying to track them and their activity. Garibaldi doesn't let Sheridan who or what his source is, and I love his reasoning: If I tell you, then you won't be able to trust me with any sensitive information if a superior just orders me to reveal it. I think at this point, Sheridan is suspicious of the Shadow (even if he doesn't know them by name) being responsible for helping the Centauri in their attack on the Narn.

There's no going back now. With the attack on Outpost 37 in "Chrysalis", then Narn didn't know who was responsible. This time, there's no doubt, no confusion, it's right there: The Centauri invaded. And Londo continues on his path of descent. The Centauri already secretly credited him with the attack on Outpost 37 and now, he arranged for another meeting with Morden, which leads to another attack on the Narn and open warfare. As Londo hears The Emperor's last words, he lies to everyone and says The Emperor wants them to press forward. When what The Emperor really said was that they were damned.

The Emperor was so unlike almost all the other Centauri seen in the series. He seemed genuinely interested in peace. I like that he genuinely wanted to meet a Vorlon and gets a chance to see Kosh before he dies. Also his lack of crazy hair. Either the character was no frills (literally) or the actor didn't want to wear that type of wig. Either way, it made him stand out and stand apart.

Another masterstroke was when Sheridan talks G'Kar down from going to kill Londo. His question, "Which is more important to you: revenge or saving your people?" The following meeting of Ambassadors was super-tense as they talk about the Centauri's invasion of a Narn Colony in Quadrant 14. G'Kar informs Londo that the Narn have declared war on the Centauri, and leaves.

I expect Vir to turn on Londo at some point, since he thinks what they're doing is wrong, and I expect him to become even more vocal as Londo gets worse.

Shout out to Malachi Throne as the Centauri Prime Minister!

Definitely a game-changing episode that shook the status quo up, moved characters forward, and is Babylon 5's best episode in a bit. Not to mention Janet Greek was back as a Director! I give it a 10.

Okay, caught up. Back to alternating between DS9 and B5. What an episode!
 
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I have to mention one more thing about "The Coming of Shadows".

When they have the flash-forward to Londo and G'Kar at each other's throats in a fight to the death as old men, I wonder if that's what actually ends up happening or is it just a possible future?

It makes me think of TNG and The Future in "All Good Things" versus what actually happened in Picard, and how certain similar things ended up happening in PIC but it wasn't 1:1.

Great camera work on that scene by the way, especially with the close-ups, the set design, and the makeup. How reddish it looked made it truly seem both Hellish and in the heat of a particular moment.
 
Lord Garth said:
Shout out to Malachi Throne as the Centauri Prime Minister who's completely on Londo's side. Throne's character is the only person Londo would share what The Emperor really said with.
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Incredible episode!

Just a quick note: Malachi Throne plays the Prime Minister who's on Centauri Prime. Londo shares the Emperor's words with Lord Refa, who's played by...er...someone other than Malachi Throne.
 
DonIago said:
Incredible episode!

Just a quick note: Malachi Throne plays the Prime Minister who's on Centauri Prime. Londo shares the Emperor's words with Lord Refa, who's played by...er...someone other than Malachi Throne.
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William Forward played Refa, and Turhan Bey played the Emperor.

Fun fact: the Prime Minister and Emperor were later both named as the actors who portrayed them... Prime Minister Malachi and Emperor Turhan.
 
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