Re-Watching DS9

[Lord Garth]

I'd say you are very generous.

I broadly judge things by a combination of the standards of the time (I'll look at Star Trek from the '60s, '80s, '90s, and Today in different ways), how well I thought they accomplished what they were aiming for (not every episode is trying to be "Duet", but it can still be the best episode of its type), and how much I personally got out of the experience as a viewer (which comes down to my own personal tastes or whatever happens to resonate with me). So, I stand by all of those choices.

I'll have to add in VOY now that I've re-watched all of it, but some other time.

 

[Lord Garth]

"Armageddon Game"

Technically this is a 2nd Re-Watch for me in 2024 because I already re-watched this episode ahead of Discovery Season 5, since Rayner is a Kellerun. We'll circle around back to that at the end.

Breaking Convention: During the pre-credit sequence, I feel we were thrown into the end of a Planet of the Week Episode with Bashir and O'Brien eliminating the Harvesters. All knowledge of them destroyed. Credit to them for not following standard plot structure. After the credits, the Kellerun attack the T'Lani, who Bashir and O'Brien were helping. We get a short but tense action sequence, and everyone is killed except for Bashir and O'Brien.

Bashir & O'Brien: I love how this episode contrasts Bashir's wanting to survive with O'Brien's actual survival skills. When when O'Brien needs to do repairs, he's doing his own type of surgery: on machines instead of people, and Bashir is out of his element. Although later on, Bashir will be back in his element when O'Brien becomes ill.

Bashir talking to O'Brien about his marriage and how spouses sacrifice so much for those in Starfleet. Bashir needs to mind his own business. I'm not married, but I wouldn't want someone poking and prodding into my personal life like that.

Mourning: I'm glad they didn't dwell on the mourning too much, since Bashir and O'Brien weren't really dead. Nevertheless, the scenes with the different characters and how they felt were nice, but the real highlight is Keiko's determination and forensics. She knows her husband, all his habits, and knows the video of O'Brien's (and Bashir's) death is a fabrication. She won't give up and has evidence to justify it.

Bashir & Women: With how much Bashir talks about women and has them on his mind, I think Gene Roddenberry would've loved his character.

The Twists: The T'Lani and Kellerun want to eliminate ALL knowledge of the Harvester weapons, so they want to kill Bashir and O'Brien too. Sisko and Dax rescue them, then let the T'Lani and Kellerun think they've killed all of them. Some smart out-thinking on Sisko's part.

The Sets: They went above the standard pattern budget for this episode because the T'Lani sets are very elaborate. The T'Lani ships themselves look like something that would fit in on Discovery.

Speaking of which... Time keeps on slipping, slipping, slipping... into the future...

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Rayner and Discovery: Why would the creators of DSC want to use such an obscure race as the Kellerun for Rayner? No, it's not fan-service. It's too deep of a cut. No one remembered the Kellerun. Guaranteed all anyone probably remembered, including myself, was the Bashir/O'Brien Storyline. Here's what I think happened: I think they looked through the catalog of Star Trek aliens to see what they could use. Speculation only, but I think they just happened to like the way the Kellerun looked: kind of like Vulcans but not.

As far as Rayner not having the same type of hair as the Kellerun had in "Armageddon Game", I think they just decided not to go with it. And even if they did, I can imagine Callum Keith Rennie, who played Rayner, looking at that wig and saying, "I'm not putting that fucking thing on!"

Summing Up: I wanted to like this episode more than I did but, despite some cleverness, it still feels by the numbers. Maybe I'll feel differently later but, for now, I'll give it a 7. No, instead I'll give it a 7.5.

I can't put my finger on what's missing from it.

 

[AntonyF]

"Rivals"
How often do you go into a bar and there's no TV? Never! He should have one and have it on.

Funny, I avoid pubs with TVs and what I consider bars never have TVs.

TVs indicate sport.

 

[Lord Garth]

Funny, I avoid pubs with TVs and what I consider bars never have TVs.

TVs indicate sport.

If I remember right, you're from the UK. We're not so lucky in the US. At least not in New England. I'll try to face away from the TV. Or just outright ignore it when there's no way around it.

 

[AntonyF]

If I remember right, you're from the UK. We're not so lucky in the US. At least not in New England. I'll try to face away from the TV. Or just outright ignore it when there's no way around it.

Guilty as charged!

 

[Farscape One]

"Armageddon Game"

Technically this a 2nd Rewatch for me in 2024 because I already re-watched this episode ahead of Discovery Season 5, since Rayner is a Kellerun. We'll circle around back to that at the end.

Breaking Convention: During the pre-credit sequence, I feel we were thrown into the end of a Planet of the Week Episode with Bashir and O'Brien eliminating the Harvesters. All knowledge of them destroyed. Credit to them for not following standard plot structure. After the credits, the Kellerun attack the T'Lani, who Bashir and O'Brien were helping. We get a short but tense action sequence, and everyone is killed except for Bashir and O'Brien.

Bashir & O'Brien: I love how this episode contrasts Bashir's wanting to survive with O'Brien's actual survival skills. When when O'Brien needs to do repairs, he's doing his own type of surgery: on machines instead of people, and Bashir is out of his element. Although later on, Bashir will be back in his element when O'Brien becomes ill.

Bashir talking to O'Brien about his marriage and how spouses sacrifice so much for those in Starfleet. Bashir needs to mind his own business. I'm not married, but I wouldn't want someone poking and prodding into my personal life like that.

Mourning: I'm glad they didn't dwell on the mourning too much, since Bashir and O'Brien weren't really dead. Nevertheless, the scenes with the different characters and how they felt were nice, but the real highlight is Keiko's determination and forensics. She knows her husband, all his habits, and knows the video of O'Brien's (and Bashir's) death is a fabrication. She won't give up and has evidence to justify it.

Bashir & Women: With how much Bashir talks about women and has them on his mind, I think Gene Roddenberry would've loved his character.

The Twists: The T'Lani and Kellerun want to eliminate ALL knowledge of the Harvester weapons, so they want to kill Bashir and O'Brien too. Sisko and Dax rescue them, then let the T'Lani and Kellerun think they've killed all of them. Some smart out-thinking on Sisko's part.

The Sets: They went above the standard pattern budget for this episode because the T'Lani sets are very elaborate. The T'Lani ships themselves look like something that would fit in on Discovery.

Speaking of which... Time keeps on slipping, slipping, slipping... into the future...

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Rayner and Discovery: Why would the creators of DSC want to use such an obscure race as the Kellerun for Rayner? No, it's not fan-service. It's too deep of a cut. No one remembered the Kellerun. Guaranteed all anyone probably remembered, including myself, was the Bashir/O'Brien Storyline. Here's what I think happened: I think they looked through the catalog of Star Trek aliens to see what they could use. Speculation only but I think they just happened to like the way the Kellerun looked: kind of like Vulcans but not.

As far as Rayner not having the same type of hair the Kellerun have in "Armageddon Game", I think they decided not to go with that. And even if they did, I can imagine Callum Keith Rennie, who played Rayner, looking at that wig and saying, "I'm not putting that fucking thing on!"

Summing Up: I wanted to like this episode more than I did but, despite some cleverness, it still feels by the numbers. Maybe I'll feel differently later but, for now, I'll give it a 7.

I can't put my finger on what's missing from it.

I actually rate this one an 8, possibly 9. For the good reasons you have already mentioned, and how it also shows Quark, in his own way, has an appreciation for both of them. And I love the mentioned rule of acquisition, which it not only keeps Quark as being a traditional Ferengi but also allows him to grow.

"Good customers are as rare as latinum. Treasure them."


It's a nice, subtle way of giving the character permission (for lack of a better term) to grow but still be who he is at the core.

 

[Lord Garth]

I actually rate this one an 8, possibly 9. For the good reasons you have already mentioned, and how it also shows Quark, in his own way, has an appreciation for both of them. And I love the mentioned rule of acquisition, which it not only keeps Quark as being a traditional Ferengi but also allows him to grow.

"Good customers are as rare as latinum. Treasure them."


It's a nice, subtle way of giving the character permission (for lack of a better term) to grow but still be who he is at the core.

I had to sleep on it, but now I know what my issues are:

• We barely know anything about the T'Lani and the Kellerun. There's no context for their war.
  
  
• If the Harvester is a biogenic weapon and knowledge on how to build one can be destroyed, fine. But someone else could -- or maybe already has -- developed another type of biogenic weapon.
  
  
• How Sisko and Dax were able to save Bashir and O'Brien was too easy. It should've been a little harder.
  
  
• Why are Bashir and O'Brien on T'Lani Prime as opposed to a Doctor and Engineer from a starship? A starship can travel at Warp 9, a Runabout can only do Warp 4 (or 5?). If it were the Enterprise in orbit, and Crusher and Geordi, it would make more sense. Bashir and O'Brien give us more entertainment value, but I'm talking about in terms of the set-up. I can see why the T'Lani and Kellerun wouldn't want a starship anywhere near them, but how would they convince Starfleet not to send a starship?

I do appreciate all the character beats and character moments, but more should've been put into the mechanics of the plot as well.

I'll bump it up to a 7.5.

 

[JesterFace]

I recently watched 'Armageddon Game'.
There's one thing that really popped out:
Keiko: "But you never drink coffee in the afternoon."
Miles: "Sure I do".

Hiding in the other Runabout was clever but apparently the pursuing ship isn't very fast, Runabout's maximum speed is warp 5, right?

 

[Orac]

Have you watched Soul Hunter yet?

 

[Lord Garth]

Have you watched Soul Hunter yet?

Not yet. I post about an episode right after I've seen it. I have other plans for tonight. So probably tomorrow.

From this point on, I'm alternating between DS9 and B5 episodes until I hit the end of B5.

 

[kkt]

I saw Bashir's insensitive blabbering to Miles about how much Starfleet service is hard on spouses as deliberately playing up how socially awkward Bashir was in the first few seasons.

 

[DonIago]

I haven't seen AG in quite some time, but I remember finding the Keiko bit kind of cute in a way, but also pretty contrived. I wish there'd been some other way for Our Heroes to realize that what they saw wasn't what they thought they were seeing.

 

[Lord Garth]

"Soul Hunter" (B5 S1E2)

Spoiler

This episode takes about seven-and-a-half minutes to get going but, once it does, Delenn warns Sinclair about Soul Hunters who steal your soul. Not the type of thing I was expecting from Babylon 5 but, to be fair, I'm still learning what's in B5's wheelhouse.

Rarely do I say something like this, but the Soul Hunter is a weirdo. There's no way to say it other than to say it. He possesses someone who looks like they've lived the rough life, then chases someone else, only to get that person he possessed killed. Then he starts meditating and saying some type of chant. I'm like, "Ummm... okay!"

Sinclair wants nothing to do with him and wants him off B5 ASAP. Delenn wants the souls the Soul Hunter has stolen from the Minbari. Some interesting discussion here. Delenn says Minbari souls combine to create the souls of new Minbari. This is like reincarnation. The Soul Hunter says the soul ends with death. So, the Minbari and the Soul Hunters have a philosophical disagreement about life after death.

Then the Soul Hunter escapes and another Soul Hunter, one of the Soul Hunter Authorities, is looking for him.

Sinclair: "Two Soul Hunters! Did someone book a convention without telling me?" That's the line of the show!

For the first 30 minutes, I thought it was going to be an "Ehhh... " type of episode, besides the discussion about spirituality. Then the first Soul Hunter showed up proverbially knocking on Delenn's door, telling her he was here to save her soul. Then I thought to myself, "Uh-oh... " That right there got me briefly invested. But then, of course, like any stereotypical villain, he tells Delenn exactly what he's going to do and takes long enough, and the process is dragged out enough, so that Sinclair can rescue Delenn in time.

I'm going to give it a 6.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Spoiler: B5: Soul Hunter

SHAK TOT!!!

I always find it a bit jarring whenever Babylon 5 features something blatantly supernatural, but then I think that about every sci-fi series so maybe it's just me. I'm pretty sure that the Soul Hunter serial killer never possessed anyone though, he was just sensing their impending death using his precognitive powers. That's how it's supposed to work for their species, they sense the death and come running over to grab the soul, but he decided to be more proactive.

I wish I could say that Soul Hunter is as bad as Babylon 5 gets, it's not, but it doesn't get much worse. You'll likely struggle to find a fan who doesn't have the episode in their bottom 10. Incidentally, on IMDb it's ranked between A Man Alone and Q-Less, so your ratings are pretty typical so far.

 

[Lord Garth]

"Whispers"

It took until the middle of the second season, but this is a first for DS9. The first knock-out "What the Hell is going on?!" episode of the series. This was always one of my favorite episodes of DS9, and it still holds up. We start in a Runabout with O'Brien, and he recalls -- through flashback -- everything that happened to him up to the point where he's now on the run. Everyone's acting so strange around him, everyone's trying to keep him from finding out what's going on, and as soon as he thinks he's found someone he can trust it turns out "they got to you!" and O'Brien ends up isolated and alone.

On the run, trying to escape, then he reaches Parada II in the Gamma Quadrant only to find... himself! The Ultimate WTF Moment. Then we find out the O'Brien we've been following all episode is a clone who's really a Manchurian Candidate and he's killed before he kills the Paradans. This could've been an episode of The Twilight Zone.

And when O'Brien is on the run, you feel like you're on the run with him. That's how you know you're engaged with the story. I didn't even check the time once; I was so engrossed. It's like you forget everything else going on when you're watching this.

Befitting how strange everything else is, the Paradans have a really nice, alien alien looking design. At least as much as a humanoid alien can get. After having watched a few episodes of Babylon 5 now to compare, for the most part, I prefer the alien makeup on DS9.

Because of how crazy high-concept "Whispers" is, and because it never gets old, even when you know how it turns out, I give this episode a 10.

The only thing I have to wonder about is: Why call the episode "Whispers"? Is there some type of deeper literary or biblical meaning that I missed? I'm just wondering out loud.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I just assumed that the title refers to O'Brien's friends whispering behind his back, having secret conversations that he's excluded from. That's the only meaning I'm aware of.

It's been a while since I last saw it, but I remember being a little disappointed by Whispers during my last rewatch. I expected it to be a stand-out classic, but it was merely 'pretty good'. It'd still make it into my top 10 for season 2 though, joining the Circle trilogy and Necessary Evil.

 

[Farscape One]

"Whispers"

It took until the middle of the second season, but this is a first for DS9. The first knock-out "What the Hell is going on?!" episode of the series. This was always one of my favorite episodes of DS9, and it still holds up. We start in a Runabout with O'Brien, and he recalls -- through flashback -- everything that happened to him up to the point where he's now on the run. Everyone's acting so strange around him, everyone's trying to keep him from finding out what's going on, and as soon as he thinks he's found someone he can trust it turns out "they got to you!" and O'Brien ends up isolated and alone.

On the run, trying to escape, then he reaches the Parada II in the Gamma Quadrant only to find... himself! The Ultimate WTF Moment. Then we find out the O'Brien we've been following all episode is a clone who's really a Manchurian Candidate and he's killed before he kills the Paradans. This could've been an episode of The Twilight Zone.

And when O'Brien is on the run, you feel like you're on the run with him. That's how you know you're engaged with the story. I didn't even check the time once; I was so engrossed. It's like you forget everything else going on when you're watching this.

Befitting how strange everything else is, the Paradans have a really nice, alien alien looking design. At least as much as a humanoid alien can get. After having watched a few episodes of Babylon 5 now to compare, for the most part, I prefer the alien makeup on DS9.

Because of how crazy high-concept "Whispers" is, and because it never gets old, even when you know how it turns out, I give this episode a 10.

The only thing I have to wonder about is: Why call the episode "Whispers"? Is there some type of deeper literary or biblical meaning that I missed? I'm just wondering out loud.

An excellent episode that holds up with every rewatch. One of the reasons it works so well is because it's O'Brien and not anyone else. He's the everyman.

(My wife always thought the ending was very sad, and over the years, I see her point. RepliBrien really had no idea what was going on and didn't ask for his fate, and his final words would be exactly what the real O'Brien would say.)


Regarding the title, I've always thought it meant that everyone was off just enough to seem not themselves... little whispers of something wrong rather than outright obviously wrong. Sort of like the phrase 'hints and whispers'.

 

[DonIago]

Is this the first "O'Brien Must Suffer!" episode?

 

[Farscape One]

No. I would call "ARMAGEDDON GAME" the first one.

Though season 2 really made O'Brien suffer... that, "WHISPERS", and "TRIBUNAL".

 

[JesterFace]

The nasty thing with 'Whispers' is that while O'Brien does all this cool stuff to escape and starts to find out what's going on.... It's not O'Brien but a copy of him.