Re-Watching DS9

[Ray Hardgrit]

I'm particularly surprised because starting with VOY season 2, they used the updated phasers (curved grip ones) and tricorders (flatter ones) that DS9 started using in their 4th season.

Obviously, they had no contact at all with Starfleet until much later (season 4's "MESSAGE IN A BOTTLE"). So how did they get the updated equipment?

This was actually answered by the first episode of Enterprise, when Malcolm Reed came in with a box of new phasers he'd been keeping under his bed or whatever. It turns out that Starfleet ships keep their newest equipment locked away until it's dramatically appropriate.

I've been very negative about DS9 in my comments so far and I'm afraid I'm going to have to do it again, as Rivals is one of the few times where the series failed to sell me on its reality. There's a lot I can go along with, telepathy, godlike aliens, transporters etc., but the idea that a probability device can affect luck is pure fantasy, as in there has to be intelligence behind the magic for it to work. Something has to understand what tennis is before it can precisely sabotage one player in multiple different ways. So I didn't buy it. Also it wasn't a very good episode in general.

(I'd also give it a 6 though).

 

[DonIago]

"Rivals"

The first episode released in 1994. I don't normally watch Star Trek in the middle of the day. Middle for me. And especially not DS9. But this felt like a "middle of the day, middle of the season" episode. It killed some time.

First let me get out of the way the thing that's NOT middle of the road: the costuming. The costuming on all the guest-characters was brilliant. Very smart future fashion. Then there's Bashir who's dressed like an athlete. And O'Brien who looks like an average guy who put on some sweats from the department store.

Even though she wasn't on the scene yet, the woman who was arm candy for Martus looks like Lady Gaga. So, I get a kick out of that in retrospect.

Miles "The Mechanic" O'Brien vs. Julian "The Doctor" Bashir: I'm not a sports fan, even though I used to record them as a videographer, so I can't relate to that aspect of that aspect of the episode. But what I can relate to is O'Brien not being able to do the types of things he used to do 15 years ago. At 45, I'm totally, completely with him there. So, as a middle-aged guy (I really hate admitting that!), I was on O'Brien's side and rooting for him to kick Bashir's butt, to paraphrase Keiko.

Quark vs. Martus: At first glance, it looks like Martus has it all. He's a hunk, he looks rugged, he's got charm, and he's a good listener. Everyone goes to his new establishment instead of Quark's. Martus is lucky until ALL his luck runs out and people realize he's a fraud.

The Laws of Probability: I guess improbable things happening with increasing frequency is fine as a plot device for Trek, but it didn't grab me that much.

Overall, I give this episode a 6.

One Other Thing: I'm surprised Quark doesn't have a TV on all the time (or the 24th Century equivalent). I never thought about it until re-watching this episode, but now I can't un-think it. How often do you go into a bar and there's no TV? Never! He should have one and have it on.

I don't remember whether there were any extenuating circumstances, but despite some of the fun parts of this episode, I recall on my initial viewing I just found it exceptionally bland. In retrospect I think that even while fun things do happen, overall it's pretty forgettable, and certainly doesn't add anything to much of the overall storylines (maybe it adds some flavor to the O'Brien-Bashir dynamic?).

I didn't appreciate that Chris Sarandon of The Princess Bride was in it, but I don't think he makes Martus especially stand out either.

 

[Lord Garth]

I don't remember whether there were any extenuating circumstances, but despite some of the fun parts of this episode, I recall on my initial viewing I just found it exceptionally bland. In retrospect I think that even while fun things do happen, overall it's pretty forgettable, and certainly doesn't add anything to much of the overall storylines (maybe it adds some flavor to the O'Brien-Bashir dynamic?).

I didn't appreciate that Chris Sarandon of The Princess Bride was in it, but I don't think he makes Martus especially stand out either.

I'll forget all about "Rivals" by the time I get to the next episode!

 

[Farscape One]

This was actually answered by the first episode of Enterprise, when Malcolm Reed came in with a box of new phasers he'd been keeping under his bed or whatever. It turns out that Starfleet ships keep their newest equipment locked away until it's dramatically appropriate.

I've been very negative about DS9 in my comments so far and I'm afraid I'm going to have to do it again, as Rivals is one of the few times where the series failed to sell me on its reality. There's a lot I can go along with, telepathy, godlike aliens, transporters etc., but the idea that a probability device can affect luck is pure fantasy, as in there has to be intelligence behind the magic for it to work. Something has to understand what tennis is before it can precisely sabotage one player in multiple different ways. So I didn't buy it. Also it wasn't a very good episode in general.

(I'd also give it a 6 though).

Good point about Reed and the phase pistols in "BROKEN BOW". But even there, you would still see some of the other older pistols used by others throughout the first couple seasons of ENT. I'd expect Voyager to do the same for at least a little bit, too.

 

[Lord Garth]

I'm up early. Super-early. I ended up putting too much pressure on my left heel last night, and I couldn't sleep. Feet have waaaaayyyyyy too many nerves. So, I'm putting on the last episode of DS9 that aired before the premiere of B5 Season 1.

"The Alternate"

Odo's "father", Dr. Mora. "He's not my father!," exclaims Odo. Maybe not, but Dr. Mora has the father-thing down pat. Including poking and prodding about things that are none of his business, trying to force Odo to do and be like what he wants, and constantly interrupting him. On the other hand, you have Mora saying that Odo doesn't appreciate what he did for him, and that he'd like to be part of his life. All of that rings true.

That's Dr. Mora the Father. Then there's Dr. Mora the Scientist. The person studying Odo. Dr. Mora didn't even know that Odo was sentient at first. Odo then proved to Dr. Mora that he was sentient.

Then there's Dr. Mora the Father and the Scientist. He didn't think Odo would make it in the world. That he'd come back to the laboratory. Except Odo could make it in the world and has a high position on DS9, as Chief of Security. Something that astonishes Dr. Mora.

Even though Dr. Mora always saying, "It's amazing you can do this!", "It's amazing you can do that!" got annoying after a while, if I look at it from his point of view, I can see where he's coming from. Going from Blob to Security Chief is quite an accomplishment.

The technobabble subplot where Odo has to track down what turns out to be himself, I wish they didn't have that. I feel like it dragged the whole episode down. They should've done what TNG did with "Family" and have the entire episode be character stuff.

It should be higher, and without the subplot it would be, but I give this episode a 7.

.
.
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Onto Bablyon 5 Season 1, Episode 1 tomorrow or the day after!

 

[kkt]

"Rivals"

One Other Thing: I'm surprised Quark doesn't have a TV on all the time (or the 24th Century equivalent). I never thought about it until re-watching this episode, but now I can't un-think it. How often do you go into a bar and there's no TV? Never! He should have one and have it on.

I agree with your point, however it's not a bar, it's a bar on television. I usually don't want to watch TV shows about people watching TV. The people are supposed to be the center of attention.

 

[Lord Garth]

I agree with your point, however it's not a bar, it's a bar on television. I usually don't want to watch TV shows about people watching TV. The people are supposed to be the center of attention.

I guess that's why the bar on Cheers is where everybody knows your name!

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

One Other Thing: I'm surprised Quark doesn't have a TV on all the time (or the 24th Century equivalent). I never thought about it until re-watching this episode, but now I can't un-think it. How often do you go into a bar and there's no TV? Never! He should have one and have it on.

He likely used to, but Odo shut him down after he started broadcasting live feeds from the holosuites (without permission of the users) instead of shows.

Besides, everybody has their own private viewing devices; nobody's watching the public TV. Though it would have been a good thing to have when catastrophic newsworthy events occurred.

 

[Lord Garth]

"Midnight on the Firing Line" (B5 S1E1)

I'm sticking with keeping everything in Spoiler Code for Babylon 5. A reminder that unlike with DS9, this is a first-watch for me, NOT a re-watch. So please no spoilers. Thanks!

If I start openly speculating about something and I'm totally wrong about where it's going, let me be wrong! I'll get a big kick out of it in retrospect when I look back and compare what I think will happen versus what actually did.

It was easier to slip back into Babylon 5 than I thought it would be...

Character Building & World Building:

Spoiler

Ivanova: I like Ivanova better than Takashima as First Officer, she has more presence. My favorite line early on the episode comes from Ivanova, "If you'll excuse me, I'm in the middle of 15 things, all of them annoying." It's now my new goal to use that phrase IRL the next time I find myself in a similar type of situation and want someone to get lost.

Television. And see? This follows up on what I was saying about "Rivals" (DS9). On Babylon 5, they have TV! I don't care what Data said, TV's not going to die out in 2040. It'll evolve, I watch more YouTube than actual TV now, but the basic concept of watching something on a monitor isn't going to go away. Nor will peoples’ desires to sit down and be entertained and/or informed. The holodeck isn't the same thing. Since it's interactive, it's more like playing a video game than watching television. But that's getting off on a tangent, back to the show...

Politics. I like that in the background, on the TV, they're talking about an election. I expect the details will make more sense to me as the season/series unfolds. I also love the small talk when Sinclair asks Ivanova who she's voting for. I really appreciate that they're developing the politics in the background this early on. Even though, because I don't know anything about it, I feel like I did during the 1988 Election, when I was in fourth grade and we had a mock vote. I had no idea if I wanted to vote for Bush Sr. or Dukakis. I didn't know anything about either of them! This contrasts with DS9 where we get to know Winn and Bariel when they're introduced in "In the Hands of the Prophets". There, I feel like we had a sense of who Winn and Bariel were in their first appearance. Here, in B5, I think I'll only get to know the politicians piece-by-piece.

Sinclair: By having Ivanova get to know Sinclair, we as the audience get to know more about him as well. They really double-down on Sinclair as a military man. His family have been fighter pilots going back to the 20th Century. It even informs how he sees people. He knows the Minbari are honorable because he's fought them, and that's how he feels like he can really get to know someone.

Sinclair & Ivanova: They seem like they get along, but I'm just waiting for the day when Sinclair feels strongly one way about something, Ivanova feels strongly the other way, and they lock horns. Don't tell me, but I feel like that's going to happen somewhere down the line!

Londo vs. G’Kar. They really set up the rivalry between Londo and G’Kar here. Londo envisions himself dying in 20 years, fighting with G’Kar to the death. So, these two are NOT going to get along. Because this series lasts for five seasons, not 20, I’m guessing this is exactly what doesn’t happen!

The Soundtrack:

Spoiler

As much as I liked the intro theme for the Pilot, I like the theme they changed to here for Season 1 better. It sounds more timeless, whereas the original music sounded very '90s.

The A-Story:

Spoiler

There’s not much to the actual main plot. Londo thinks G’Kar is behind Narn attacks on the Centauri and wants to kill him for revenge. Garabaldi stops Londo, Sinclair fends off the Narn, and Ivanova oversees a council meeting and prevents war from breaking out. A whole lot of maneuvering to keep the peace.

The B-Story:

Spoiler

Ivanova feels uncomfortable around Talia, who’s a telepath. It feels like this was tacked on at the end to fill out the rest of the episode. I think it’s excessive for telepaths to have to go to prison or take drugs if they don’t join the Psi Corps, but it does offer insight into what Earth’s prejudices are and gives Ivanova some character flaws.

Summing Up:

Spoiler

I still feel a little bit thrown into it, but it was easier for me to follow this episode than the pilot, which I had to watch several times. I’m going to give this episode a 7.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

It sounds like you're reaping the benefits from rewatching the pilot movie, as you clearly know your Centauri from your Minbari already. And yeah Ivanova is right up there with Kate Mulgrew's Janeway as an example of a replacement actress who was a much better fit for the job.

 

[Lord Garth]

I'm not putting this one in Spoiler Code, because I don't think it's spoiling anything. Garabaldi watching Duck Dodgers and laughing soooo hard at it. "Duck Dodgers in the 24th-and-a-Half Century!!!" I don't think Duck Dodgers is that funny. It's fun, and it's amusing, but not the kind of thing that's going to make me laugh, and especially not so out loud. So, I think they overdid it a little.

But, you now what? For three decades, I've heard from some circles that "DS9 is a rip off of B5!" If anything, Garabaldi watching cartoons reminds me of VOY, not DS9. Specifically, Tom Paris watching old cartoons. Especially in "Memorial" when he gets that '50s-looking TV. Did he make it, or did Torres? I can't remember. Either way, I can relate. I haven't gone through with this, but I actually want to get an '80s TV, by ordering it on E-Bay, so I can put somewhere in my house. Maybe even watch something on it from time-to-time. Preferably one that looks like the one I had when I was a kid. I know it sounds silly, but it's something I'd get a big kick out of.

My favorite Looney Tunes where they go into space is actually when Bugs Bunny goes to Mars (or the Moon, whatever it was) and has a run-in with Marvin the Martian! That one was a fun one.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I'm not putting this one in Spoiler Code, because I don't think it's spoiling anything. Garabaldi watching Duck Dodgers and laughing so hard at it. "Duck Dodgers in the 24th-and-a-half Century!!!" I don't think Duck Dodgers is that funny. It's fun, and it's amusing, but not the kind of thing that's going to make me laugh, and especially not so out loud. So, I think they overdid it a little.

Nothing to do with Babylon 5, but I put my sci-fi reviews on a blog and I have a page where they're all sorted by date, and it turned out that Duck Dodgers is actually pretty old. I mean it's older than Forbidden Planet. It's old enough for Walter Koenig to have seen it when he was just a teenager. In fact, I'm not sure I'll ever write about anything older, so it'll remain all on its own at the very top of the page forever.

To be honest, it holds up pretty damn well considering. I can imagine kids still watching it in 2258, and maybe even the occasional security officer if they're the kind of guy who has a Daffy Duck poster on their wall. (Incidentally, the cartoon is possibly set in 2353, which would put it 11 years before Encounter at Farpoint, towards the end of the Lost Era).

 

[Commander Troi]

My favorite line early on the episode comes from Ivanova

You will find she continues to be quotable.

Garabaldi watching Duck Dodgers and laughing soooo hard at it.

I totally related to that, as I love Duck Dodgers!

 

[Maj. Dick]

I've noticed on my simultaneous rewatch of TNG and DS9 that TNG does single stories sooooooo much better than DS9 most of the time. With the obvious exceptions of episodes like The Visitor, The only single story episodes that compare to the best of TNG are Obrien episodes.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I've noticed on my simultaneous rewatch of TNG and DS9 that TNG does single stories sooooooo much better than DS9 most of the time. With the obvious exceptions of episodes like The Visitor, The only single story episodes that compare to the best of TNG are Obrien episodes.

I disagree with that so much I don't even know where to begin, but to each their own.

 

[Maj. Dick]

The more I rewatch DS9, the more I appreciate multi part episodes and characters like Eddington. However, the more I rewatch, the more i dislike watching mirror universe episodes, and DESPISE the season 7 plotline of Gul Dukat. For a show with such rich writing and careful character development, they really got brainless with handling their most complex and interesting character. On a general entertainment level it sucked too. Nothing is fun about watching Dukat cuddle with Kai Winn, and spend endless episodes trying to read a book of black magic.

 

[Lord Garth]

Every episode of DS9 I've given a 10 to so far has been highly character-driven, arc-based/serialized or not. I summed up what I thought of every TOS and TNG episode earlier in the year.

Spoilers - General Disco Chat Thread

Hell, even hardcore fans anal about the number don't always agree. Because there are actually 80. "The Menagerie" was two parts. [*Runs*]

www.trekbbs.com

The Best/Worst Seasons of TNG by my arbitrary judgment.

I never thought the first season was as bad as many say; it's major weakness being the actors were not fully settled into their roles yet (something you'll notice in the first seasons of many shows). The second season was let down by Dr. Pulaski, who never seemed to have any chemistry with the...

www.trekbbs.com

These are the Episodes from TOS, TNG, and DS9 (up to where I am in the re-watch) that I consider to be "excellent" (a.k.a. the 10s):

TOS
"The Cage"
"Where No Man Has Gone Before"
"The Enemy Within"
"The Naked Time"
"Balance of Terror"
"Court Martial"
"Tomorrow Is Yesterday"
"A Taste of Armageddon"
"This Side of Paradise"
"The City on the Edge of Forever"
"Amok Time"
"The Doomsday Machine"
"Mirror, Mirror"
"The Trouble With Tribbles"
"Return to Tomorrow"
"The Ultimate Computer"
"The Enterprise Incident"
"The Empath"
"The Tholian Web"
"For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky"
"Day of the Dove"

TNG
"Where No One Has Gone Before"
"Datalore"
"11001001"
"Heart of Glory"
"Conspiracy"
“The Measure of a Man”
“Q Who”
“The Emissary”
“Peak Performance”
“The Defector”
“Yesterday’s Enterprise”
“The Offspring”
“Sins of the Father”
“The Best of Both Worlds, Part I”
“The Best of Both Worlds, Part II”
“Family”
“Reunion”
“The Drumhead”
“Darmok”
“Cause and Effect”
“The First Duty”
“The Inner Light”
“Chain of Command, Part I”
“Chain of Command, Part II”
“Face of the Enemy”
“Tapestry”
“Lessons”
“Frame of Mind”
“Parallels”
“The Pegasus”
“Lower Decks”
“Preemptive Strike”
“All Good Things”

DS9 (up to the middle of Season 2 only)
"Emissary"
"Dax"
"The Nagus"
"Duet"
"In the Hands of the Prophets"
"Necessary Evil"

I'd say most of the TOS and TNG episodes I listed are highly character-driven, but not all. Some of them are "I love what they did with that crazy idea!" Whereas with DS9 (up to this point), it's all character-driven, and all more grounded in the natural setting of the series itself.

 

[JesterFace]

@Lord Garth
I thought you didn't like STNG. =)
The amount of 10-star episodes is surprising....

 

[Lord Garth]

@Lord Garth
I thought you didn't like STNG. =)
The amount of 10-star episodes is surprising....

That changed when I did the re-watch before PIC. Don't go by whatever I said in the late-2010s.

I also stopped hiding that I think of DSC/SNW as a splintered timeline, even though I still like DSC. I blame any differences on the Temporal War.

I've split off from my former clique here. It slowly became more and more clear to me over time that I wasn't on the same page with them as much as I thought I was. The shift was already happening in 2022 and 2023, but it was completed in 2024. So I'm a free agent now.

It also turns out there's a huge difference between actually watching something again and just letting some stupid "My Side vs. Your Side" Internet Argument take on a life of its own where you only half-remember things. I previously hadn't watched the vast majority of TNG since high school.

As much as some of you don't like PIC, you can thank it for leading me back to TNG/DS9/VOY.

 

[Poltargyst]

Every episode of DS9 I've given a 10 to so far has been highly character-driven, arc-based/serialized or not. I summed up what I thought of every TOS and TNG episode earlier in the year.

Spoilers - General Disco Chat Thread

Hell, even hardcore fans anal about the number don't always agree. Because there are actually 80. "The Menagerie" was two parts. [*Runs*]

www.trekbbs.com

The Best/Worst Seasons of TNG by my arbitrary judgment.

I never thought the first season was as bad as many say; it's major weakness being the actors were not fully settled into their roles yet (something you'll notice in the first seasons of many shows). The second season was let down by Dr. Pulaski, who never seemed to have any chemistry with the...

www.trekbbs.com

These are the Episodes from TOS, TNG, and DS9 (up to where I am in the re-watch) that I consider to be "excellent" (a.k.a. the 10s):

TOS
"The Cage"
"Where No Man Has Gone Before"
"The Enemy Within"
"The Naked Time"
"Balance of Terror"
"Court Martial"
"Tomorrow Is Yesterday"
"A Taste of Armageddon"
"This Side of Paradise"
"The City on the Edge of Forever"
"Amok Time"
"The Doomsday Machine"
"Mirror, Mirror"
"The Trouble With Tribbles"
"Return to Tomorrow"
"The Ultimate Computer"
"The Enterprise Incident"
"The Empath"
"The Tholian Web"
"For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky"
"Day of the Dove"

TNG
"Where No One Has Gone Before"
"Datalore"
"11001001"
"Heart of Glory"
"Conspiracy"
“The Measure of a Man”
“Q Who”
“The Emissary”
“Peak Performance”
“The Defector”
“Yesterday’s Enterprise”
“The Offspring”
“Sins of the Father”
“The Best of Both Worlds, Part I”
“The Best of Both Worlds, Part II”
“Family”
“Reunion”
“The Drumhead”
“Darmok”
“Cause and Effect”
“The First Duty”
“The Inner Light”
“Chain of Command, Part I”
“Chain of Command, Part II”
“Face of the Enemy”
“Tapestry”
“Lessons”
“Frame of Mind”
“Parallels”
“The Pegasus”
“Lower Decks”
“Preemptive Strike”
“All Good Things”

DS9 (up to the middle of Season 2 only)
"Emissary"
"Dax"
"The Nagus"
"Duet"
"In the Hands of the Prophets"
"Necessary Evil"

I'd say most of the TOS and TNG episodes I listed are highly character-driven, but not all. Some of them are "I love what they did with that crazy idea!" Whereas with DS9 (up to this point), it's all character-driven, and all more grounded in the natural setting of the series itself.

I'd say you are very generous.