Re-Watching DS9

[Lord Garth]

I might as well get this out of the way now, with SFA coming up in a week. To be brutally honest, I'm not feeling it. I don't have any strong sense of anticipation for it. And, if anything, the closer we get, the more I think I'll probably come down "in the middle" at best. I don't think I'll feel strongly one way or the other. That's what my sixth sense is telling me.

What does that have to do with here? The Re-Watch Threads are my first priority, when it comes to this board. DS9, B5, VOY. I don't have the time, patience, or willingness to deal with what I'm sure is going to be the latest Circus DuJour when it comes to talking about new Star Trek on this board. Been there, done that, not doing that again, no thank you. So, nothing's changing. I'm not putting anything off for the sake of SFA.

Plus, you know, when I really think about it, I'm not going to get anything remotely on the level of "Hard Time" from either SFA or SNW. Let's be honest. Let's be really honest.

So, with that out of the way, onto B5. It's been a little while, hasn't it?

 

[Lord Garth]

"Sic Transit Vir" (B5 S3E12)

Spoiler

This one's a little on the thin side. We have what looks like a primarily Vir episode. Congratulations to him! He's married in a pre-arranged way. Londo thinks it's great. Then he finds out that Vir has been helping out Narns. He's a "radical", and then Vir is forced to avoid the Minbari and to stay under Londo's thumb.

I wish Vir would stand up for himself. I like the character, but it's like watching George McFly. And he's constantly getting hit! It's like when George McFly had the "kick me" sign on his back. I think Vir is the opposite of Lennier. Lennier will stand up for himself and has strong convictions. Vir wants to have strong convictions but won't stand up for himself. Vir is weaker willed than Lennier. I'll applaud it if Vir ever gives Londo what he deserves.

Vir's pre-arranged wife-but-not-wife-yet is something else. Lyndisty is a completely traditional Centauri woman. She thinks love is completely secondary to marriage. And her views of the Narn. It's chilling how calmly and cheerfully she talks about how inferior they are. It's crazy. The historical parallels... she would've been right at home in a southern state of the USA in the 19th Century. Vir deserves better than Lyndisty.

The highlight of the episode is Vir creating a made-up person, Abraham Lincolni, to aid the Narn. So, he'd be like an Abolitionist.

Sheridan and Delenn have a dinner date that keeps getting interrupted. That was mildly amusing.

Ivanova dreams she's naked in C'n'C, wonders what her purpose is, so her uniform is symbolic of her purpose, and then finds her purpose by the end of the episode in doing what's right. That's pretty much it. It's not even really fleshed out beyond the surface level at all.

Some good ideas in here, and I understand that not every episode can be a heavy hitter, but there needed to be more. I give it a 6.

 

[Osol Twist]

im at "what you leave behind" for the one hundred time and i cant wait to start ds9 from the start all over again... it's the best series that ever happened to TV imo.

 

[Lord Garth]

Just for the Hell of it, I had the scene from "Hard Time" where Bashir talks O'Brien down from committing suicide translated into Shakespearian English.

BASHIR:
Thou slew’st him?

O’BRIEN:
Aye—and most accursèd of all, upon the morrow the guards did feed me once again. Thus had I slain him for naught, for a mere crust of bread he meant to share with me.

BASHIR:
Yet ’twas an error. Thy will was not in it.

O’BRIEN:
My will was wholly in it. I did desire his death. Ever I tell myself it matters not, that it was no true deed, but such words are lies. Had it been real—had it been thee in his stead—it would have altered nothing. He was my dearest friend, and I did murder him. When first we grew to manhood, they told us mankind had changed, that hate and fury were cast off, outgrown. Yet when the moment came—when I was given cause to prove that, whatever cruelties were wrought upon me, I yet remained a man refined and risen above the beast—I did fail. I answered kindness with blood. In that hour, I was no better than a brute.

BASHIR:
No—no, I say, a thousand times no. A beast would have struck Ee’char down and never once looked back, never shed a tear. But thou art not such. Thou dost loathe thyself; aye, so deeply dost thou loathe thyself that thou deem’st thy own death just. The Argrathi labored with all their might to strip thee of thy humanity, and in one brief instant they prevailed. Yet thou must not suffer that fleeting instant to govern the whole of thy days. If thou dost—if thou shouldst pull that trigger—then shall the Argrathi have the victory. They shall have undone a good man. This must not be. Thou must not let it come to pass, my friend.

 

[Lord Garth]

"The Muse"

I suspect I'm going to have a minority opinion here, but I actually liked this one. I don't think it's too highly regraded, but I can really relate to it.

The A-Story
Jake's a writer and he's on a roll even before Onaya shows up. He's writing what will become Anslem. I've been writing stories since I was 7. Unlike Jake, it took until my 40s before I had one that I thought I could turn into a novel and have finally begun writing one. It could take years before it's ready, but still. But even setting aside novel writing, when you're in a creative groove, like I've been in the past with writing scripts, you don't want to stop. You don't want anything to stop you or to get in the way. I personally wouldn't have turned down going to wherever Sisko and Kassidy went, since the locale might spark ideas, but I understand the sentiment.

Jake's way of writing is interesting. He comes up with the characters first. I come up with the story first, then think of characters who can serve that story. Then, later on, when I get to know the characters well enough, I switch to how the story builds off the characters. So, I start off story-driven and then it turns character-driven by the end of the process. I have no way of knowing, but it would be interesting to know if Jake sticks with a process that's entirely character driven.

Then the arrival of Onaya. She seems like an encouraging, nurturing influence. But no, she's the exact opposite. She puts art ahead of the artist. She gets Jake to write the first several pages of Anslem. Initially, I was wondering why she wanted Jake to get rest, then I put two and two together and realized she'd need several sessions with Jake in order to get him to write an entire novel. All she got out of him through one session was just the beginning of a novel. And a partial novel wouldn't make Jake as remembered as a full novel.

The energy that gets sucked out of Jake in putting together that novel, if Sisko hadn't driven Onaya off, then Jake would've become a one-novel wonder who died at 17. He would've been remembered as a prodigy. Sisko saving Jake's life here, so he can continue to live out his life is unintentionally a parallel to "The Visitor" when Elderly Jake sending Sisko back, so his father could also live out his life.

When Onaya turns into a being of energy and escapes, after Sisko finally finds her with Jake, it reminded me of Babylon 5. An energy being like that would've fit right in over there. Unlike Babylon 5 however, DS9 has a character who's a writer. So, even though Onaya might seem B5-like, this is a DS9 story through and through.

One more thing I want to talk about with this part of the episode. The decor. I loved the way Onaya decorated he quarters. It looked very spiritual and New Age. Ironic that if she'd succeeded, then Jake himself would've become only a spirit.

The B-Story
This is probably one of my favorite Lwaxana Troi stories. After nine seasons, between TNG and DS9, she's finally found a husband. Then she has to face the reality of it instead of the idea. Jeyel, played by Michael Ansara, is Lwaxana's husband. Michael Ansara was perfect in this role. He insists on raising his male child that Lwaxana's pregnant with. In his society, boys are raised by men and girls are raised by women. They don't know about the opposite sex until the age of 16. So, Jeyel wants to take Lwaxana's son away from her.

Jeyel seems like he might be an honorable man, even though I don't agree with the way his society does things, but -- at the same time -- I have to wonder if Jeyel was lying to Lwaxana when promised they wouldn't raise their child in the traditional way. I have two theories: 1) either he was sincere but pressured by his society do things by tradition, or 2) he was desperate to have a son, and said whatever he could -- whether he meant it or not -- to make sure he would get one. As the episode went on, it seemed to me like he wanted a son more than he wanted a wife.

Case-in-point: When Odo figures out that only the mother's husband would have custody over the child and not the boy's father, Odo and Lwaxana get married and nullify Jeyel's marriage to her. As expected, Jeyel objects at first and Odo explains why he loves Lwaxana. Later on, Lwaxana says she almost believed it. Maybe Odo even made himself believe it, but it's genuine how much he appreciates that Lwaxana accepted him for who and what he is, going all the way back to "The Forsaken" in the first season.

After that, Jeyel could've asked the question, "Then why did you reject her before?" The easiest follow-up question he could've asked. The easiest rebuttal. But he doesn't. I think that Jeyel realized that he couldn't be with a woman who would go through with what he thought was such a sham. That's if he felt pressured by his society and then overcompensated by acting super-traditionalist. On the other hand, if he only wanted to have a son, then he could've thought he'd just look elsewhere. I appreciate that they left Jeyel's motivations for leaving up to interpretation.

The scenes with Lwaxana in Odo's quarters were fun to watch. I think Odo really did want Lwaxana to stick around, but she was right. She'd want to be more than just friends with Odo if she stayed, it wouldn't happen, then she'd resent him and didn't want to ruin their friendship over that. All of that makes sense.

I have to wonder what happened to Lwaxana after she returned to Betazed to raise her son. I also wonder what happened to them when the Dominion capture Batezed two seasons from now. That's also something open to interpretation. I'm sure there are novels covering it. I wish it was touched upon in Picard, but back to "The Muse".

Summing Up
A low-key episode with a lot of depth, when you look at the layers. Both of these could've been the A-story, but I chose to call Jake's story the A-story since the episode was titled after his muse and it's what opens up the episode. I give it a 7.

 

[Farscape One]

I also really like "THE MUSE". A creativity vampire is a great concept (cast well because Meg Foster has a magnetic voice and eyes), and the Odo/Lwaxana story was really sweet. I feel it IS the weakest of the season, but even saying that, I'd probably give it a 7 or 7.5.

When a season's low point is a 7 to a 7.5, THAT is a damned excellent season.

 

[Lord Garth]

"A Late Delivery from Avalon" (B5 S3E13)

Spoiler

King Arthur on Babylon 5? There's a twist. And, of course, Marcus is the one who can reach out to him. The British accent. He looks like he could be a Knight. And here's a surprise. King Arthur mentions the year 515 AD. I knew King Arthur was supposed to be from Medieval Times, but I didn't know it was towards the beginning.

In which case... um, King Arthur would've spoken Old English, and he'd neither recognize the version of English that Marcus speaks nor his accent. I was so glad that Franklin mentioned his speech patterns were too contemporary. Credit to JMS for being aware enough to realize some of us in the audience -- like me -- would be wondering about that.

I also always thought that King Arthur was fictional and mythological. I had no idea that there was debate about whether or not he actually existed. As it was said he might've existed, I had to pause the episode to look at up and sure enough, there is debate over whether or not he existed. Interesting.

King Arthur and G'Kar fighting side-by-side to stop injustice. Ne'er-do-wells in Downbelow who steal and pick fights with the weak. Never thought I'd see that either! "Sometimes you have to bow to the absurd," as I once heard somewhere else. I wish they actually showed that sword battle. That would've been fun to see. G'Kar being knighted and called Sir G'Kar by King Arthur was icing on the cake.

Then this episode goes totally crazy and off the deep end when Franklin figures out what King Arthur really is and tells him who he really is: a former Earth Defense Officer who's now gone crazy and thinks of himself as King Arthur. Michael York gives a great performance as he relives his mental breakdown. In the end, King Arthur -- I'm not calling him by whatever this person's real name is -- joins the Narn Resistance against the Centuari.

Meanwhile, there's a B-Story in the background where Garibadi feels like he's getting ripped off because postal fees have become too expensive thanks to Babylon 5 having declared independence. Between this and Sheridan and Ivanova's council meeting with other races on Babylon 5, it's nice to see the consequences of Babylon 5's independence are bringing.

Hmm. I don't know how to rate this episode. Most of it is completely ridiculous, but I still enjoyed it anyway. It owns its ridiculousness. It's not great, but it's better than mid. I give it a 7.

Two fluffy episodes of Babylon 5 in a row. I hope it picks back up again with some heavier material soon.

 

[Farscape One]

Don't worry... the next string of episodes is quite heavy.

 

[DonIago]

"A Late Delivery from Avalon" (B5 S3E13)

Spoiler

King Arthur on Babylon 5? There's a twist. And, of course, Marcus is the one who can reach out to him. The British accent. He looks like he could be a Knight. And here's a surprise. King Arthur mentions the year 515 AD. I knew King Arthur was supposed to be from Medieval Times, but I didn't know it was towards the beginning.

In which case... um, King Arthur would've spoken Old English, and he'd neither recognize the version of English that Marcus speaks nor his accent. I was so glad that Franklin mentioned his speech patterns were too contemporary. Credit to JMS for being aware enough to realize some of us in the audience -- like me -- would be wondering about that.

I also always thought that King Arthur was fictional and mythological. I had no idea that there was debate about whether or not he actually existed. As it was said he might've existed, I had to pause the episode to look at up and sure enough, there is debate over whether or not he existed. Interesting.

King Arthur and G'Kar fighting side-by-side to stop injustice. Ne'er-do-wells in Downbelow who steal and pick fights with the weak. Never thought I'd see that either! "Sometimes you have to bow to the absurd," as I once heard somewhere else. I wish they actually showed that sword battle. That would've been fun to see. G'Kar being knighted and called Sir G'Kar by King Arthur was icing on the cake.

Then this episode goes totally crazy and off the deep end when Franklin figures out what King Arthur really is and tells him who he really is: a former Earth Defense Officer who's now gone crazy and thinks of himself as King Arthur. Michael York gives a great performance as he relives his mental breakdown. In the end, King Arthur -- I'm not calling him by whatever this person's real name is -- joins the Narn Resistance against the Centuari.

Meanwhile, there's a B-Story in the background where Garibadi feels like he's getting ripped off because postal fees have become too expensive thanks to Babylon 5 having declared independence. Between this and Sheridan and Ivanova's council meeting with other races on Babylon 5, it's nice to see the consequences of Babylon 5's independence are bringing.

Hmm. I don't know how to the rate this episode. Most of it is completely ridiculous, but I still enjoyed it anyway. It owns its ridiculousness. It's not great, but it's better than mid. I give it a 7.

Two fluffy episodes of Babylon 5 in a row. I hope it picks back up again with some heavier material soon.

It was fun to see Michael York (it always is), but I think he was underserved by this episode, and I think by this point in the series, with all that was going on, I was especially uninterested in the one-off episodes.

 

[Lord Garth]

It was fun to see Michael York (it always is), but I think he was underserved by this episode, and I think by this point in the series, with all that was going on, I was especially uninterested in the one-off episodes.

If this were a comic book, I'd be picturing something from the Bronze Age, with King Arthur on the cover fighting side-by-side with Marcus and Sir G'Kar. With a caption that exclaims, "KING ARTHUR Joins the Fight!!!"

On sale for 65 cents! Oh wait, JMS is one generation before us. Make that a Silver Age Comic, on sale for 12 cents. I bet he had that type of image in his head since he was a kid.

 

[Farscape One]

It was fun to see Michael York (it always is), but I think he was underserved by this episode, and I think by this point in the series, with all that was going on, I was especially uninterested in the one-off episodes.

While I do agree it IS a one-off episode, it DOES connect to a major event in the series: the starting of the Earth-Minbari War.

I might call this one a necessary episode... though not essential. (I know that sounds like an odd distinction, but I'm not sure of another way to word how I feel about it.)

 

[DonIago]

While I do agree it IS a one-off episode, it DOES connect to a major event in the series: the starting of the Earth-Minbari War.

I might call this one a necessary episode... though not essential. (I know that sounds like an odd distinction, but I'm not sure of another way to word how I feel about it.)

I'm honestly so familiar with the series at this point that I'm not really sure whether we learn anything about the Earth-Minbari war that we didn't already know before this episode or won't learn in other episodes (I won't count In the Beginning).

 

[Farscape One]

I'm honestly so familiar with the series at this point that I'm not really sure whether we learn anything about the Earth-Minbari war that we didn't already know before this episode or won't learn in other episodes (I won't count In the Beginning).

I get what you mean. Him being the one to fire the first shot wasn't essential to know, but it was a nice story that connected to that war.

I guess for me it gave more life to the war, and I always love those little nuggets that give a universe more life.

 

[DonIago]

I get what you mean. Him being the one to fire the first shot wasn't essential to know, but it was a nice story that connected to that war.

I guess for me it gave more life to the war, and I always love those little nuggets that give a universe more life.

Fair. Maybe it ultimately would have felt more meaningful if "Atonement" and then In the Beginning hadn't come along and given much more life to the war?

IIRC there's a shot of Michael York in ItB and on the one hand it's kind of nice to see but on the other hand it also feels entirely unnecessary and gratuituous. Huh, it's season three of Picard.

 

[Farscape One]

Fair. Maybe it ultimately would have felt more meaningful if "Atonement" and then In the Beginning hadn't come along and given much more life to the war?

IIRC there's a shot of Michael York in ItB and on the one hand it's kind of nice to see but on the other hand it also feels entirely unnecessary and gratuituous. Huh, it's season three of Picard.

Well, since Lord Garth has not seen IN THE BEGINNING yet, I'll spoiler tag what I am about to say.

Spoiler: IN THE BEGINNING

Since that entire movie was done as a flashback/story being told form, and reused lots of footage from B5 up to that point, I can't really call it gratuitous adding in York's scene.

 

[Lord Garth]

I haven't clicked on the Spoiler Box. I'm telling myself not to look at anything. But I get the feeling I'm going to be all about In the Beginning.

^ EDITED TO ADD: I'm going to quote myself on this when I get there!

 

[DonIago]

For me, ItB is by a significant margin the best of the four five B5 films. Then again, two of them are arguably pretty dire, while a third is...better, but suffers from a soundtrack that I find at best unflattering. The fourth is animated and suffers from more complicated but inevitable challenges that I don't think it quite overcomes..

 

[Farscape One]

Aren't there six?

THE GATHERING (pilot movie)
IN THE BEGINNING
THIRDSPACE
THE RIVER OF SOULS
THE LOST TALES
THE ROAD HOME

Seven if you count A CALL TO ARMS, which was the B5 movie meant to be the backdrop that setup CRUSADE.

(Not counting THE LEGEND OF THE RANGERS, as it was intended to be the pilot for another series.)

 

[Lord Garth]

Aren't there six?

THE GATHERING (pilot movie)
IN THE BEGINNING
THIRDSPACE
THE RIVER OF SOULS
THE LOST TALES
THE ROAD HOME

Seven if you count A CALL TO ARMS, which was the B5 movie meant to be the backdrop that setup CRUSADE.

(Not counting THE LEGEND OF THE RANGERS, as it was intended to be the pilot for another series.)

Which ones came out in the '90s?

For this thread, I'm only sticking with whatever came out in the '90s and doesn't have to do with Crusade.

 

[Farscape One]

Which ones came out in the '90s?

For this thread, I'm only sticking with whatever came out in the '90s and doesn't have to do with Crusade.

THE GATHERING
IN THE BEGINNING
THIRDSPACE
THE RIVER OF SOULS


A CALL TO ARMS also did, but it leads into CRUSADE.

THE LOST TALES was in the 2000s, as was THE LEGEND OF THE RANGERS.

THE ROAD HOME was about 2 and a half years ago.