Re-Watching DS9

[Lord Garth]

Hope you've got your smallpox vaccination! (Yeah, yeah, I should stop being a spoilsport.)

Being a Xennial, I never got one! I guess I'm screwed!

I finished a couple more Michelle Yeoh movies, I finished watching one episode of Discovery, I'm about to put on another, maybe I'll get caught up with some Dark Shadows (why not?), it's another series I've started watching...

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... and then I'll get back to "Fascination"! Kind of taking my sweet time getting back to it. Gee, I wonder why?

Just wait 'til I get up to "Let He Who Is Without Sin" and "Profit and Lace"!

 

[Farscape One]

"FASCINATION" is massively better than "LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN..." and "PROFIT AND LACE". (In my view, the fifth and second worst episodes on all of DS9, respectively.)

 

[Lord Garth]

I'll get back to "Fascination" once I've seen Section 31. Promise! But, in the meantime, I've re-watched "Inquisition" and "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" and posted anything S31-relevant about it here.

I don't know where else to post this, there doesn't seem to be another thread with an opening for me to say it, but: after watching some late-DS9 again, I agree with Ron Moore. I think DS9 could've and should've run 10 seasons. Well, maybe not 10. Probably nine. That would've brought us to Spring 2001. It's a good thing DS9 ended before 9/11.

While I'm convinced the DS9 writers would've handled the change of times we lived in better than the ENT writers -- Just compare Ron Moore's BSG to ENT Season 3. As far as I'm concerned, there's no comparison. -- it would've felt weird for them to go into another war after the one they were in just ended.

 

[DonIago]

It would have been nice to see how things played out on Bajor after the deaths of both Sisko and Winn, and maybe there could have been some more GQ exploration post-Dominion War.

I'm pretty happy with the novelverse's version of events.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

It seemed intentional to me that it ended at the highest point of drama, so you get the big war and then it's over. I wouldn't have minded an epilogue season which deals with the aftermath and is a little brighter, a bit like Enterprise season 4. But then fans would've started asking 'So, when are you going to get around to resolving the main thread of the whole series, Bajor joining the Federation?' and I think Ira Behr was happy he got away with leaving them separate.

 

[Lord Garth]

Back to the 1990s. Or 2370s. Depending on how you want to look at it. I'm putting "Fascination" back on from the beginning.

"Fascination"

This episode didn't work out for me. Even though it was whatever Luaxana Troi was afflicted with that she spread around, it was just an excuse to write the characters acting badly and having the oddest pairings imaginable. Either characters pursuing each other who should never be romantically involved or otherwise just behaving very oddly. Then we have O'Brien who clumsily tries to have a romantic few days with Keiko, who's back from Bajor, only to find out they're not on the same page at all, which reduces him to acting like a stereotypical bad sitcom husband. The Promenade was decorated nicely for the Bajoran Gratitude Ceremony, but when the decor is my favorite thing about the episode, it's a bad sign.

If Gene Roddenberry had still been alive, he probably would've loved this episode, but I don't. Jake/Kira, Bariel/Jadzia, and Quark/Keiko are combinations I never want to think of ever again. The first episode of DS9 up to this point that I outright haven't liked. I give it a 3.

In spoiler code, I have my original reaction, which the next few posts are what people were responding to. Just for context.

Spoiler

Instead of the standard format I normally use, we're doing something different this time. Here's a list of moments where I cringed, rolled my eyes, yelled at the projection screen, or all three:

1. Jake telling Kira he's interested in her. --> Screamed at that one before! Then shut the episode off for a few days!

2. Bariel trying to make the moves on Dax.

3. O'Brien being jealous of Keiko.

4. Jake telling his father Marta was too immature and he'll always be at Kira's side. --> Turned the episode off (again!!!) before turning it back on!

5. Quark giving advice to O'Brien about women. "You let your women go out in public, hold jobs, wear clothing, and you wonder why your marriages fall apart!"

6. Bariel resisting Kira, who's acting like Luaxana, and saying he needs to find Jadzia! --> Screamed again!

7. "Thank you, Nerys, for being such a good friend!" --> A song came to mind. Yup, that's right...

I have to stop the list for a moment to play this. "Thank you for being a friend... "

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My mother used to watch this, she had it on in the living room, and I watched with her. And don't even try to lie! You watched it too.

Back to the list!

8. So this one isn't a cringe or a scream, and this point I'm just laughing! Sisko and Dax don't know how to tell Kira about Bariel, and then Dax starts making the moves on Sisko!

If Gene Roddenberry were alive, he would've loved this episode! But he's not the one watching this right now!

9. Jake went up to Kira -- again!!! -- and I yelled, "COME ON!!!!"

10. O'Brien to Keiko, "You're right. I'm an idiot!" Now I'm just watching a stupid sitcom. "I said some things that were pretty stupid." Yeah, you did. But you know what else is stupid? This episode!

--- 34 minutes into this, they finally figure out something's going on. ---

11. Bashir wants to examine Kira to see what's going on, then Bashir and Kira kiss! Then that kiss turns into more serious kissing! If this were cable, it would've turned into...

12. Bariel fighting Sisko for Jadzia, and then Jazia punching Bariel down onto the ground!

13. Quark and... Keiko?!

Then Bashir finds out Luaxana had a virus that spread to everyone.

At the end of the episode Luaxana Troi, "This is one Bajoran Gratitude Ceremony, they won't be forgetting soon!" Definitely not! But at least she figures out Odo isn't in love with her.

For the first five or 10 minutes, this looked like it could've been an okay episode. Then it descended right up until almost the very end. It was trying to be funny, but I don't think it was.

Summing Up: There are two types of Luaxana Troi episodes. Ones that are much better than you would've thought... and then episodes like this. Way too many cringe moments, way too much rolling my eyes. Section 31 was bad, it's true, but this was also bad. Just a different type of bad. But unfortunately, the result is still the same. I give it a 3.

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What a rough couple of days for me watching Star Trek!!! But it's only going to get better from here, because next time is "Past Tense" and then, after that, "Caretaker" in the VOY Forum! Looking forward to both.

 

[Farscape One]

I have always had a soft spot for "FASCINATION". It's fun, and has some of the best shots of the Promenade in the series.

 

[Lord Garth]

I have always had a soft spot for "FASCINATION". It's fun, and has some of the best shots of the Promenade in the series.

I do like the way they decorated the Promenade.

 

[Lord Garth]

I'm doing "Past Tense" next, not "The Gathering". I want to leave off with Star Trek I think is good before delving into a full-on B5 Season 1 binge. Other than "The Gathering", unless something really jumps out at me as different, I'm not planning to say anything about any other specific episodes. I'll let you know if that one episode that didn't click with me finally does. What was it? ... looks it up ... "Deathwalker", that's the one.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Deathwalker's not really anything special, I was just surprised it ended up at the bottom of your list instead of comfortably in the middle.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

@Lord Garth did you watch the I Love Lucy episode yet?

 

[Lord Garth]

@Lord Garth did you watch the I Love Lucy episode yet?

Not yet. Up until I got back to "Fascination", everything's been Michelle Yeoh movies, Disco episodes with Georgiou, key S31 episodes, and Section 31 itself.

It's going to be a dry spell in this thread while I work my way through B5 Season 1 again, so I'll be watching the Lucy episode when I feel like taking a break from it, and will post about it here.

 

[Orac]

I thought Section 31 was pretty good. I didn't have high expectations for it.

 

[Poltargyst]

Back to the 1990s. Or 2370s. Depending on how you want to look at it. I'm putting "Fascination" back on from the beginning. I ended up giving Section 31 a 3. Yes, you read that right. Here's hoping for better from here...

"Fascination" (Continued)

Instead of the standard format I normally use, we're doing something different this time. Here's a list of moments where I cringed, rolled my eyes, yelled at the projection screen, or all three:

1. Jake telling Kira he's interested in her. --> Screamed at that one before! Then shut the episode off for a few days!

2. Bariel trying to make the moves on Dax.

3. O'Brien being jealous of Keiko.

4. Jake telling his father Marta was too immature and he'll always be at Kira's side. --> Turned the episode off (again!!!) before turning it back on!

5. Quark giving advice to O'Brien about women. "You let your women go out in public, hold jobs, wear clothing, and you wonder why your marriages fall apart!"

6. Bariel resisting Kira, who's acting like Luaxana, and saying he needs to find Jadzia! --> Screamed again!

7. "Thank you, Nerys, for being such a good friend!" --> A song came to mind. Yup, that's right...

I have to stop the list for a moment to play this. "Thank you for being a friend... "

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My mother used to watch this, she had it on in the living room, and I watched with her. And don't even try to lie! You watched it too.

Back to the list!

8. So this one isn't a cringe or a scream, and this point I'm just laughing! Sisko and Dax don't know how to tell Kira about Bariel, and then Dax starts making the moves on Sisko!

If Gene Roddenberry were alive, he would've loved this episode! But he's not the one watching this right now!

9. Jake went up to Kira -- again!!! -- and I yelled, "COME ON!!!!"

10. O'Brien to Keiko, "You're right. I'm an idiot!" Now I'm just watching a stupid sitcom. "I said some things that were pretty stupid." Yeah, you did. But you know what else is stupid? This episode!

--- 34 minutes into this, they finally figure out something's going on. ---

11. Bashir wants to examine Kira to see what's going on, then Bashir and Kira kiss! Then that kiss turns into more serious kissing! If this were cable, it would've turned into...

12. Bariel fighting Sisko for Jadzia, and then Jazia punching Bariel down onto the ground!

13. Quark and... Keiko?!

Then Bashir finds out Luaxana had a virus that spread to everyone.

At the end of the episode Luaxana Troi, "This is one Bajoran Gratitude Ceremony, they won't be forgetting soon!" Definitely not! But at least she figures out Odo isn't in love with her.

For the first five or 10 minutes, this looked like it could've been an okay episode. Then it descended right up until almost the very end. It was trying to be funny, but I don't think it was.

Summing Up: There are two types of Luaxana Troi episodes. Ones that are much better than you would've thought... and then episodes like this. Way too many cringe moments, way too much rolling my eyes. Section 31 was bad, it's true, but this was also bad. Just a different type of bad. But unfortunately, the result is still the same. I give it a 3.

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What a rough couple of days for me watching Star Trek!!! But it's only going to get better from here, because next time is "Past Tense" and then, after that, "Caretaker" in the VOY Forum! Looking forward to both.

I guess I'm not sure why you had such big emotional reactions to it. You said you saw it 30 years ago, so you knew everyone was just under the influence of Luaxana's virus, and it wasn't real. I'm not defending the quality of the episode. You can give it a 3 if you want, but what was the big deal?

 

[Lord Garth]

I guess I'm not sure why you had such big emotional reactions to it. You said you saw it 30 years ago, so you knew everyone was just under the influence of Luaxana's virus, and it wasn't real. I'm not defending the quality of the episode. You can give it a 3 if you want, but what was the big deal?

Nothing really, it was just cringe. I played some of this up for entertaiment value, but the essence of what I thought was still there. I didn't like it any more when I was 15. And, it's been 30 years. Some things I've just plum forgotten. It's been two-thirds of my life since the last time I watched.

We're talking about a time before I was on the Internet and when I was putting a ton of Aqua Net in my hair. VHS and cassette tapes were still a thing. It was a long time ago.

I remembered Luaxana had something going on, but I didn't remember how long it took them to find out. And I didn't remember any specifics. Just very broad strokes. A lot of these TNG, DS9, and VOY episodes I'd only half-remembered. That's why I decided to do these re-watches. Before Picard, I said to myself, "I'm going to re-watch every single episode of TNG" because I wanted to be reacquainted with what I was getting myself back into instead of relying on an extremely faded memory.

Episodic show, 26 episodes per year, seven years, eventually something's going to come up I don't like. It's more impressive that we made it this far into DS9 without my giving anything else as low of a rating. That's actually a good thing for the series as a whole.

Plus, we're talking about comedy. And that's at the mercy of what someone's sense of humor is. This wasn't mine, so it didn't click.

 

[Lord Garth]

That's more like it. I've only watched the first part so far, but there's more than enough here that I want to talk about Part I separately. Warning, I don't promise not to get political. I won't get too political, but there's just no way around it since we're talking about 2024.

"Past Tense, Part I"

What to do with the poor? The homeless? How is the economy affecting those with lower incomes or those with no income? What do we do with the mentally ill? How do we clean up the towns and cities? How do those less fortunate regard those less fortunate? All relevant in the 1990s, all relevant in the 2020s, all relevant in the 1930s for that matter, during the Great Depression! Like Sisko said, these are issues we've been dealing with for almost 100 years. In fact, right now I'd say we're in the 2nd Gilded Age, similar to what existed in the late-19th Century where the rich become super-rich and the working class have become the working poor. We're on the verge of serfdom. And thanks to the likes of Trump and Elon Musk, we're now a fucking oligarchy. Though we've been on that path for decades.

This episode got the clothing wrong, the hairstyles wrong, and the computers way wrong. But what it didn't get wrong are all the issues where it matters the most.

I didn't even get into medical care, which is a whole separate thing, and Bashir is appropriately horrified. He points out so many cases of people who are mentally or physically ill and these people aren't getting help. They can't afford the help. It isn't available to them. Whatever the case may be.

The unemployed are seeking jobs, but there haven't been any job interviews. "What, with the economy and all." I think that might be part of it, but I also think it's an excuse. There's no doubt also a stigma to hiring someone without a proper place to live. If someone has an address that's not in a Sanctuary Distract, they'll hire that person over someone who's essentially homeless every time.

It's true right now that the unemployment rate is way down but, whenever it's not, it's going to be bad, so all of the above still stands because that doesn't make it any less right.

Here's a trailer for a film I edited 10 years ago about a homeless woman stuck on the streets. I showed this to some friends when we went live with it and they told me about how bleak and depressing it looked.

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Like Bashir said, 21st Century isn't his strong suit. "Too depressing." Luckily, it's a hobby of Sisko's so he knows how to navigate them through it. As best as he can anyway.

I have the DS9 Companion, I bought it back in 2000. When I read what went on behind the making of "Past Tense", I remember the writers talking about how a white woman would be treated versus how men of color would be treated, and it rang very true to me. Dax was found by Chris Brynner, a big media personality, and once she has him to help her out, she gets everything she needs. Whereas Sisko and Bashir were found by cops, and then it went from bad to worse.

For years, I liked to play a mind game where I tried to link the Real World with "Past Tense". I did it on this very board a few times, especially as we got closer to 2024. But at the end of the day, I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter. Do you want to know why? It goes back to what someone told me about 25 years ago: "Republicans piss on you. Democrats provide an umbrella, but they don't stop the pissing." I didn't quite get it back then, but the more time passes, the more I understand. I think some people really want to help, some people come up with an easy solution and think that's enough ("we've done our part!"), and then there are those who just don't care because it's not their problem.

At one point Bashir says, "Allowing someone to suffer because you hate them is terrible but allowing them to suffer because you've forgotten how to care, that's really difficult to understand." It is difficult. It's pretty amazing to think about how people can rationalize things, disassociate themselves from what's right in front of them, or become pragmatic and the people suffering just so happen to fall on the wrong side of the equation.

The guest characters. Chris Brynner probably is a sell-out, but a lot of people I know are sell-outs. Welcome to being an adult instead of a kid. I don't hold it against them, I won't hold it against him. At least he still cares. Unlike those who he socializes with who seem so snooty and above-it-all.

Michael Webb is the everyman. He's the one with the family and he's the typical example of a normal person who didn't do anything wrong, lost his job, and then ended up in a Sanctuary District. My guess is after he lost his job, he couldn't pay for wherever he lived, was evicted, and then him and his family ended up here.

Then there's B.C. He's fun as the Ghost. He's a man of action but he's also a loose cannon. I think he could get way more done if he wasn't so overly aggressive, but he has to make a statement with as much machismo and showmanship as possible. Entertaining as Hell to watch, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere near him.

How Gabrielle Bell getting killed and lack of outrage against the Sanctuary Districts leads what else we know not happening in Star Trek's 21st Century, I don't know, but I don't really care either.

Overall, I'm giving this a 10.

 

[DonIago]

Not a couple of episodes I think I can bring myself to rewatch right now; they would just resonate too painfully.

 

[Lord Garth]

One thing I forgot to mention about Part I. It was so trivial compared to what else I was talking about! Nice that Chris Brynner got a snake tattoo down his arm! "I got it in high school back in the '90s, like everyone else!" I don't know about California, but in Massachusetts I think you had to be 18 to get a tattoo unless you had your parents' permission. So, I was rolling my eyes at that one a little, back in 1995, because not too many kids at my high school had them! Unless it was a senior who already turned 18 or someone who stayed back. But that was really it! Still, that was cool.

"I had to have it removed to look like the rest of the drones!" Nice little joke that works as well in the 20th/21st Century as it does in the 24th. He's talking about Corporate Drones. Dax can read it as Borg Drones. Same difference. You will comply.

"Past Tense, Part II"

The previous part got all the heavy, weighty stuff out of the way, but it doesn't make the second part any less compelling, with the hostage situation. Sisko has to walk a really fine line on multiple levels. First, he has to pretend he's Gabriel Bell, someone who's destined to die. On top of that, he has to make sure that B.C. doesn't kill any of the hostages. To add on a third layer of responsibility, he has to work with Michael Webb to negotiate terms with Detective Preston, of the San Francisco Police Department (SFPD). Webb and "Bell" want Preston to relay to the Governer that they want the Federal Employment Act reinstated.

I looked up the Federal Employment Act on congress.gov, and I'll be putting the legalese and my interpretation of it into Spoiler Code. Feel free to both read it and agree or disagree with my thoughts.

Spoiler

Here's the Federal Employment Act and what it states:

Introduced in House (10/13/1978)​

Equal Opportunity in Federal Employment Act - Amends Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (equal employment opportunities) to establish an Office of Equal Employment Opportunity in each United States department, agency, or unit, to which the prohibition on discriminatory practices stated by such title applies. Specifies the functions of each Office to be: (1) advising the head of the department, agency, or unit in which such Office is located with respect to the preparation of the national and regional equal employment opportunity plans, procedures, regulations, reports, and related matters; (2) implementing and evaluating the equal employment opportunity program of such department, agency, or unit; (3) counselling employees of such department, agency, or unit who have complaints of discrimination; (4) investigating formal complaints of individual and class discrimination; and (5) resolving, either informally or formally, complaints of discrimination.​

Specifies additional programs to be included in the national and regional equal employment opportunity plan which each department, agency, or unit must submit to the Civil Service Commission for the purpose of maintaining an affirmative program of equal employment opportunity.​

My interpretation of the Federal Employment Act is that it was meant to combat discrimination in the workplace and in hiring practices. I normally think of discrimination in terms of race, gender, religion, creed, age, disability, etc. and while some of that may apply to any one of the people in the Sanctuary District, it could also arguably be interpreted as discrimination against people due to their socioeconomic status. That would certainly harm someone like Webb.

While guarding the hostages, Vin, a police officer who's a hostage, doesn't make things easy at all. B.C. wants to kill Vin, and "Webb" has to stop him. Then, in true Sisko fashion, "Webb" gives Vin an impassioned speech about how he doesn't get it. I didn't mention anything about Vin in Part I, but he strikes me as very hardened, very grizzled, and he doesn't think about what happened to these people so he can have a sense of detachment and do his job. Sisko is trying to get him to look at them as people.

He's also trying to the outside world to look at the people in the Sanctuary Districts as people. Sisko was right about having Webb be the person who should represent them to the outside world. He tells B.C. "They can't dismiss Webb as easily as you or me. He's got the family, he's got the face, he's the guy next door, and that's what they need to see!" Hard to argue with him there. Why? Because everyone's going to be afraid of B.C. And as for "Bell", well, there's no way for me to say it other than to say it: America's still racist as Hell, even though it's just barely not as out in the open as it used to be. So yes, they need a clean-cut white guy, like it or not, to get those people on the outside to even begin to care about what happens inside the Sanctury District. And I say this as someone who's only half-white and with hair currently down to my shoulders. I'm not "Mr. Clean-Cut White Guy" either.

Detective Preston won't allow the transmission, and stops it, but Dax manages to find a way to convince Chris Brynner to have the messages from the Sanctuary District inhabitants transmitted. I personally think it makes a difference to hear people out.

I got a huge kick out of Kira and O'Brien going back to different time periods and trying to find Sisko, Dax, and Bashir. Going back to the '30s was fun. Going back to the '60s was even more fun. Though, I think Kira and O'Brien should've worn more time-neutral clothing. A simple dress for Kira and a suit for O'Brien. That would've worked in all the time periods they would've gone to. But that's just a minor nitpick.

Eventually the Governer has Preston cut off negotiations. They're going to send in the National Guard because they think the hostages have been killed. Never go by rumors! And Sisko has to save the day as "Bell". When "Bell" gets in front of a bullet that would've fit Vin, Vin's exchange with the solider is priceless. "I'm a hostage you idiot!" "Do I look dead to you?!"

When Sisko, Dax, and Bashir make it back to the Defiant in the 24th Century, I appreciate the open-endedness. Bashir asks Sisko how people in the 21st Century could've let things to get so bad. Sisko says he wishes he had an answer. I think the question wasn't meant to be answered, so that was a great choice on the part of the writers. It's something there for the audience to ponder for themselves.

I didn't mention this in Part I, but I might as well mention this here. When Bashir was asking Sisko what the Federation would do if it found its back up against the wall, wondering if it would still stick to its ideals... I started wondering the writing staff had an idea of where they might take things next? At the end of the third season, I know they were planning to escalate things with the Dominion (until they had to put those plans on hold), so mid-way through the season would've been a perfect time to start thinking about what they originally wanted to lead up to.

For the most part, that's all I have to say. For the second part, I give another 10.

Now, what did I mean "for the most part"? Yeah. Here's my opening to ask this. I've wondering about it for 35 years. What's the big deal about Clint Howard? Every time I'd ever read a description of "The Corbomite Manuever", someone would say, "the young Clint Howard!" Every time he appears in Star Trek subsequently, someone's bound to say "It's Clint Howard!" Did he do something else in pop culture that I don't know of? Or is Balok his big claim to fame? Inquiring minds want to know.

NEXT TIME: See you in the VOY Forum with "Caretaker"!

 

[DonIago]

As far as Clint Howard goes, besides being the brother of Ron Howard and appearing in a lot of film and at least some TV, I'd say that, for Trek fans, appearing as Balok in one of the earliest episodes of TOS is absolutely a big deal, and as such him showing up in later series is similarly a Very Cool Thing, simillar to if not on par with the Big Three Klingons appearing.

 

[Turtletrekker]

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As far as Clint Howard goes, besides being the brother of Ron Howard and appearing in a lot of film and at least some TV, I'd say that, for Trek fans, appearing as Balok in one of the earliest episodes of TOS is absolutely a big deal, and as such him showing up in later series is similarly a Very Cool Thing, simillar to if not on par with the Big Three Klingons appearing.

Clint Howard has appeared in Star Trek FIVE times in all three production eras.