Re-Tooling The Final Frontier

[Vger23]

The second area that I liked was the challenge that Sybok poses to Spock on a very fundamental level. It's an encounter between polar opposites. He flummoxes Spock completely. Sybok has this easy going, gregarious manner about him.. Things seem to come easy to him. Spock constantly struggles with his competing inheritance, finding things difficult. Spock for a time is a bit lost until he is vindicated in the end and finally comes to terms with his half brother as Sybok sacrifices himself for their escape on good terms

The whole soap trope of a "long lost half brother" I choose to see in a satirical light and as a dig at the extraordinary degree in which Vulcans repress unwanted or "embarrassing" features of their past. Despite their logic, Vulcans are often governed by their total disdain at emotion with results that often leave us incredulous. But that's the Vulcans for you. .

This has always been true to me since the first day I saw the movie (June 9, 1989). Vulcans, and Spock in particular, have traditionally been very tight-lipped about family and culture. Nobody knew Ambassador Sarek was Spock's father until Spock revealed it early in "Journey to Babel." Nobody knew that Ponn Far was the issue with Spock's behavior and requests for LOA in "Amok Time." And here, nobody knew that Sarek had a "disgraced outcast" of a son with another mother.

It fits perfectly with established lore about the character and the Vulcan culture.

This is one I honestly think people bitch about just to bitch...because otherwise it makes perfect sense.

 

[Vger23]

Sybok should never have been Spock's half-brother. That idiocy right there is the main reason why this movie doesn't work for me. Spock had a half-brother all this time and never told anyone? That's just dumb. The ONLY reason why Sybok is Spock's half-brother was because of the lame joke they made about it. They could have made him Spock's cousin and it would have worked just the same.

I found out my best friend for almost 25 years has a half-brother and half-sister just 5 years ago. He's like my brother, but he was never comfortable sharing that information with me.

It's not "dumb." Nobody knew Spock's father was Ambassador Sarek. Nobody knew what Ponn Far was. Spock had to explain the Vulcan Mind Meld to McCoy as if nobody had ever heard or seen such a thing when he first used it in the series. Nobody knew about the Vulcan inner eyelid.

Introducing Sybok, particularly given the fact that he is a total embarrassment to the family and to Vulcan, is completely and absolutely consistent with what had been established about Vulcan and about Spock's (extremely sensitive and private) personality in the past.

 

[Dukhat]

I found out my best friend for almost 25 years has a half-brother and half-sister just 5 years ago. He's like my brother, but he was never comfortable sharing that information with me.

But did your best friend only find out about his half-siblings five years ago? The problem as far as TFF is concerned, is that it gives every indication that Spock knew about his half-brother for a long time, and didn't tell anyone. And nobody knew that Sarek was Spock's father because the TOS crew had only been serving together for a few years at that point. TFF takes place 20 years after TOS. I'd think that any secrets Spock had would have been divulged to his best friends by that time. I mean the guy freaking died and his friends helped bring him back to life. Not talking about a half-brother he hasn't seen in years really doesn't sound like such a taboo topic after that...

And even if Sybok was an embarrassment so severe that Spock felt he couldn't even talk about him to his best friends for 20 years, the "dumb" part is the ham-fisted way that Sybok was revealed in this film, and Spock's reaction to him. Spock essentially puts the entire Enterprise crew at risk because he's so stymied about seeing his half-brother in charge of a bunch of low-lifes taking over the ship that he can't even subdue the guy with a Vulcan neck pinch, much less with a gun. It's just stupid and completely out of character for Spock.

However, I realize that you didn't create a TFF-bashing thread, so I'll politely bow out now.

 

[Vger23]

That's great. But the problem as far as TFF is concerned, is that it gives every indication that Spock knew about his half-brother for a long time, and didn't tell anyone. And nobody knew that Sarek was Spock's father because the TOS crew had only been serving together for a few years at that point. TFF takes place 20 years after TOS. I'd think that any secrets Spock had would have been divulged to his best friends by that time.

And even if Sybok was an embarrassment so severe that Spock felt he couldn't even talk about him to his best friends for 20 years, the "dumb" part is the ham-fisted way that Sybok was revealed in this film, and Spock's reaction to him. Spock essentially puts the entire Enterprise crew at risk because he's so stymied about seeing his half-brother in charge of a bunch of low-lifes taking over the ship that he can't even subdue the guy with a Vulcan neck pinch, much less with a gun. It's just stupid and completely out of character for Spock.

However, I realize that you didn't create a TFF-bashing thread, so I'll politely bow out now.

My friend knew about his half-siblings for his entire life and didn't tell anyone. I think you missed that point. But, that's irrelevant. It was just an example of how what you are saying is "dumb" happens all the time in every day life.

You can argue it all you want, but essentially you just dismissed 5 or 6 examples I gave of how Spock keeping Sybok a secret is perfectly in line with the character of Spock and culture of Vulcan, but that gets dismissed "just because you didn't like it." We forgot to add anything about the existence of a Katra or Fal Tor Pan, which nobody knew anything about, after knowing each other for 20 years.

Besides, I don't really buy it that Spock would have discussed this. I don't see Spock sitting around, having a heart-to-heart with Kirk or McCoy and saying "You know....I never told you about my half-brother." That kind of sharing is an emotional indulgence, and one that Spock hardly ever caved to unless there was a major reason to do so.

Like it or not, whether it's "dumb" in your opinion or not, to have a series of previously-unknown facts slowly revealed about Spock and about Vulcan as the franchise rolled on is precisely in line with the established pattern and is what was done in the case of Sybok. It's 100% consistent with the TOS philosophy on Spock.

Trekkies: Bitch when things are consistent. Bitch when things are not consistent!

 

[Dukhat]

And you're welcome to justify what we see in TFF however you'd like. But I'm talking about the specific relationship between Spock and his crewmates, not the Vulcan race in general or other people's ignorance of their culture. And in that specific instance, I have a hard time buying that Spock hadn't revealed the existence of a half-brother sooner, even if only to Kirk. If they absolutely had to give Spock a half-brother, then it would have made more sense to have Kirk already know about him, but just not who he was specifically. Such as:

Kirk: Why didn't you stop that man?

Spock: Jim, do you remember when I once told you that I had a half-brother that was an embarrassment to the family? This is him.

But they couldn't do it that way, because the audience wasn't aware of this fact. Therefore, it had to be revealed in such a way that the viewers, like Kirk, McCoy, and the rest, were also just learning about this for the first time. And that's my problem.

Trekkies: Bitch when things are consistent. Bitch when things are not consistent!

Please. It's not necessary to make things personal.

 

[Vger23]

And you're welcome to justify what we see in TFF however you'd like. But I'm talking about the specific relationship between Spock and his crewmates, not the Vulcan race in general or other people's ignorance of their culture. And in that specific instance, I have a hard time buying that Spock hadn't revealed the existence of a half-brother sooner, even if only to Kirk.



Please. It's not necessary to make things personal.

It was a tongue-in-cheek statement designed to elicit a knowing, self-aware smile. It wasn't "personal." In the words of NuKirk "Relax cupcake, it was a joke." (braces for 4 angry cadets to beat me). That's why I followed it with a smiley. We all do it.

Like I said (and I'm really just engaging in a fun debate...I'm not all fired-up here...honestly...!!!), I can't conceive of a time where Spock would sit down over a bowl of soup and just start taking about his estranged, banished half-brother. It's awkward and inconsistent for the character, regardless of the history of friendship between he and Kirk. Why would they have occasion to have this discussion? Spock's not the type to just start saying, "you know....I never told you this...but..."

I mean, family can be embarrassing and private sometimes. There are things about my own parents that I am embarrassed or uncomfortable revealing to or discussing with my wife (who I've known and loved for 15 years)...and I consider myself a pretty open and trusting person. Spock is an alien who's very fabric is build around the denial and suppression of emotion through logic. I can imagine it would be hard, if not impossible, for him to just start sharing personal stories about his family.

I dunno. Different strokes, I guess.

 

[eyeresist]

First, eliminate many of the “hijinks and slapstick” scenes to free-up space for what I am about to propose. On the cutting room floor would immediately go:

1. 1. Scott and Uhura flirting
      
      
   2. Sulu and Chekov getting lost
      
      
   3. Scott knocking himself out
      
      
   4. Uhura fan-dancing
      
      
   5. Broken Enterprise gags
      
      
   6. Kneck-pinching the blue horses

I agree that removing as many jokes as possible is the best way to improve TFF (although I didn't think nerve-pinching the horse was really a "gag"). To your list of cuts I would add the elevator scene.
I would also remove the revelation of Spock in the Klingon ship (the Klingon's couldn't fire their own guns?) and the "not in front of the Klingons" line.

One moment in particular I've given thought to: when Spock said Sybok is his brother the film cuts to Kirk & Co looking baffled in an ironic way. But there is another shot from the same scene of the same characters looking tense and wary; I would insert that shot as a substitute, so that Spock's revelation is now not a punchline but a dramatic moment.

I'd also cut Kirk's "shoot him!" line. Out of character and not really necessary.
I would probably keep Chekov's "wonderful muscles" line, though! And most of the camping scenes.


The other change I'd make (talking in terms of fixing what exists, not going back in time and doing it again) is to insert a line from Sybok explaining how they breach the Barrier. Just something like "One of my followers is a renowned scientist, and has been working on this problem for quite some time.

It's not an evil bad guy laugh. He is laughing at his surprise.

I agree. I never thought it was an "evil laugh".

 

[Captrek]

Really? Listen to that laugh. Have you ever heard anything like that from the protagonist of a film? Have you ever heard anything like it in real life? It's the kind of laugh that is only heard in movies where you're being signaled that this is not a character you're supposed to relate to.

We get another really off-putting laugh from Sybok and his followers later in the film. "For my next crime, I'm going to steal something! Something very big! Mwa ha ha ha ha!" That's a Snidely Whiplash line. I'll give Luckinbill credit for not rubbing his hands together or playing with his facial hair while delivering the line.

 

[eyeresist]

^ This is just a difference of opinion. So far, it's two against one.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Spock had a half-brother all this time and never told anyone? That's just dumb. The ONLY reason why Sybok is Spock's half-brother was because of the lame joke they made about it. They could have made him Spock's cousin and it would have worked just the same.

Shatner, Harve Bennett, and David Loughrey said in Star Trek Movie Memories that they made Sybok into Spock's brother because it was the easiest, most efficient way to explain why Spock would betray Kirk to follow him (an idea that was toned down after Nimoy objected, but is still present in Spock's refusal to shoot Sybok). People typically have stronger bonds with their siblings than they do with their cousins.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I found and transcribed the relevant passage. From page 232 of Shatner's Star Trek Movie Memories (hardcover edition):

First and foremost on our list was trying to find some dramatically believable reason why Spock would not shoot the mutineering Sybok when he had the chance, ultimately siding with him in travelling to Sha Ka Ree. From the very beginning, we had established that Spock and Sybok had become acquainted in the seminary, but that just didn't seem strong enough. This pair had to somehow be bonded to the point where Spock would believably betray Kirk to follow Sybok. Finally, just when it was beginning to appear that we'd all written ourselves into a corner, Harve lit up and yelled, "Ahhhhh, I've got it. There's only one way out of this, and that's to make Sybok Spock's brother."

I wadded up the sheet of paper I'd been making notes on and winged it off Harve's forehead. I just didn't like the idea at all. To me, it seemed too easy, cheap, the kind of plot twist you'd find on a bad soap opera, but when Harve explained that such a strong relationship could immediately and believably translate to the big screen without a lot of clunky exposition, I skeptically challenged him to write it up and make it work. Three days later, he did just that.

 

[Tosk]

I never thought of it as a bad guy laugh either. Sybok just likes livin' life large. He's all gregarious 'n shit.

 

[eyeresist]

Sybok is just a total hippy. The writers were all baby-boomers, and he is their (subconscious?) comment on the disillusionment that followed the flower-power 1960s.

 

[Dukhat]

Shatner, Harve Bennett, and David Loughrey said in Star Trek Movie Memories that they made Sybok into Spock's brother because it was the easiest, most efficient way to explain why Spock would betray Kirk to follow him (an idea that was toned down after Nimoy objected, but is still present in Spock's refusal to shoot Sybok). People typically have stronger bonds with their siblings than they do with their cousins.

So let me put aside for the moment my personal feelings about that decision, and actually discuss what the OP intended: retooling the film.

So if they absolutely had to have the protagonist be Spock's half-brother, then the best way to introduce the audience to that fact would have been to show Spock and Sybok as teens or young adults at the start of the movie, and show just how the divide between them took place. Nix all the down-and-out farmer meets laughing Vulcan crap before the title, and just show Sybok as a younger man and the "epiphany" he had about his quest.

 

[Vger23]

I never thought of it as a bad guy laugh either. Sybok just likes livin' life large. He's all gregarious 'n shit.

Agreed. Definitely not an "evil laugh..." more like he was amused at J'Onn's reaction to the news that Sybok was a Vulcan.

 

[Elder Knight]

...

Besides, I don't really buy it that Spock would have discussed this. I don't see Spock sitting around, having a heart-to-heart with Kirk or McCoy and saying "You know....I never told you about my half-brother." That kind of sharing is an emotional indulgence, and one that Spock hardly ever caved to unless there was a major reason to do so.
...

Yeah, the unknown sibling is something right out of a 1940s movie serial plot.


When I got my security clearance from the government, they went over my background pretty thoroughly.

Now, If I had a half-brother whom I never talked about and who turned out to be involved with some foreign government or even a group of U.S, radicals, I'm sure they would have asked me about it at the very least. You'd think that in the future we'll all have records with even more detail.

I doubt that one could become a high-ranking military officer and keep such a thing a secret. Unless some kind of right to privacy was adopted across the federations, something that would be an interesting story in itself.

 

[ChristopherPike]

I've always been in favour of a team revisiting the SFX in a similar vein to The Motion Picture Director's Cut. I can pretty much live with the rest of it as is. But the visuals are what let the side down, particularly as the film builds to a climax - through the barrier for a confrontation with the notGod creature. In the unlikely event it could happen, sure try and tighten the embarrassing bits or look see if any alternate takes play better. I assume the original theatrical version would on the disc either as the extra or as the default experience.

Okay, so there's always "the why bother?" argument, but to my mind it's trying to improve a classic where you're on a hiding to nothing. Situations like The Final Frontier, where it pretty much underperforms beside better films, it can only up in appreciation. Even if it only came down to fans salivating over new flyby shots of the Enterprise, facing off against a Klingon Bird of Prey and assorted epicness the finished thing lacked.

 

[Paradise City]

That Ambassador Sarek was Spock's father in Journey to Babel came as a surprise. So there's in-universe precedence there.

 

[Vger23]

Yeah, the unknown sibling is something right out of a 1940s movie serial plot.


When I got my security clearance from the government, they went over my background pretty thoroughly.

Now, If I had a half-brother whom I never talked about and who turned out to be involved with some foreign government or even a group of U.S, radicals, I'm sure they would have asked me about it at the very least. You'd think that in the future we'll all have records with even more detail.

I doubt that one could become a high-ranking military officer and keep such a thing a secret. Unless some kind of right to privacy was adopted across the federations, something that would be an interesting story in itself.

One of the greatest mistakes Trekkers make is trying to connect dots with the way the US military and government work vs. the way a multi-species Federation and a fictional StarFleet would work in order to draw some kind of connection. It happens all the time out here when people are talking about ranks, chains-of-command, protocols, etc. I think it's interesting, but not relevant.

Even if someone in Starfleet Security knew...it doesn't mean that Kirk or McCoy knew.

 

[Elder Knight]

^ A possibility. Maybe it was like the Foreign Legion!