Rank problems

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by Gabriel, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    It was just a simple means of providing shorthand for the audience. "They have four pips on their collar, they're Captain."

    DS9 made an attempt to have officers lower than Captain in command. The Defiant basically is Worf's command, and he's Lt. Commander. Then of course, there's Dax taking command of the Defiant during the War, complete with the crew addressing her as Captain.

    Then there's the USS Prometheus from Second Sight which was commanded by a Lieutenant JG. Though, he was intended to be a Lt. Commander, costuming screwed up on his pips. Also, the episode's writer was under the impression the ship would be smaller than we saw on screen. On screen it was a Nebula class ship, which typically has a crew of 900, which should be sufficiently large enough to warrant an actual Captain to command.
    Just off the top of my head, the Oberth, Nova, Defiant, Miranda and Constellation classes are pretty small. Also, Voyager should only have been commanded by a Commander, given its crew of 150. Discovery too, though maybe in that case being an experimental ship and so vital to the war effort might have warranted an O6 officer commanding.
     
  2. StarCruiser

    StarCruiser Captain Captain

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    Houston, we have a problem...
    Then there's the old issue of the "rank" of Captain vs. the "position" of Captain...

    In the real US Navy (which Starfleet is based on), any officer in command of a ship is that ship's Captain. They do not have to have the rank of Captain to be the Captain of that ship. Lieutenant Commanders are often in charge of Destroyers and some lesser ships as are Commanders. Lieutenants may be in charge of very small coastal craft as well. In all cases, they are the "Captain" of that craft.

    Commodore is another such rank/position thing. The current US Navy doesn't have a rank of Commodore (instead, we have the insulting "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" because of congress critters) but, the position still exists as the leader of a submarine or surface squadron...
     
  3. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Kang, now with ridges Premium Member

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    The screwed up Spock's rank a few times. Even with having a vet or two on staff.
     
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  4. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Captain

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    I mean in real world I completely understand why they want to make it easy for the audience. But in universe that’s just a waste of O-6 officers
     
  5. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Captain

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    That’s exactly what I just meant I’m sorry if I came up saying something else but that’s what I mean. I mean why should every ship had we commanded by a captain (Meaning 4 pip Officer)
     
  6. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

    I've merged this one into the existing "Rank problems" thread.
     
  7. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Captain

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    Why
     
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  8. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    IMO, they should have kept the Commodore rank from TOS during the TNG era and had a dual Captain/Commodore-Designate rank for senior captains like Picard (the title is determined by current function, "captain" when sailing solo (and internally), "commodore" when commanding multiple ships like the Tachyon Blockade in Reunification). I also partially agree with others that say that at least during normal operations smaller ships should be commanded by mid-level officers (commanders, lieutenant-commanders with the title of captain), but I would suggest long-term deep space assignments might warrant a captain (if potentially a junior one) regardless of the size of ship.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
  9. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Mih ssim, mih ssim, nam, daed si Xim. Moderator

    Because it's preferable not to start a new thread for every spin-off thought on an existing topic.
     
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  10. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Captain

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    Exactly. I totally agree that a long term space exploration mission clearly warrants a captain with all the experience but just for normal operations it seems a little bit wasteful. And plus it gives junior officers command experience. Also it gives the lieutenant junior grade and Lieutenant ranks more responsibilities and more experience
     
  11. Jedman67

    Jedman67 Commodore Commodore

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    TV cares more about audience perception than accuracy. And as noted above, there were a handful of episodes which featured a lower ranking officer commanding a ship. Throughout voyagers run, Chakotay was wearing a Lt. Commander rank insignia (hard to tell since it was the "provisional") even though he was always addressed as "Commander." I think the intention was that he'd be considered the equivalent of a "Brevet" or "Acting" Commander with an "actual" rank of only Lt. C.
     
  12. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Captain

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    And that’s why sometimes TV annoys me. I all thought Chakotay was only a first officer so he is not really a commanding officer. I thought you’re going to mention Dax or the lieutenant commander who commanded the Prometheus and second sight. I thought there isn’t really evidence to prove that the lieutenant commander in second sight actually had command of the ship.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
  13. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You're right. There isn't.

    Just because he had bridge watch at that time doesn't mean he was the captain.

    Common practice for any LCDR.
     
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  14. Jedman67

    Jedman67 Commodore Commodore

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    I really have no idea, I'm taking the word of the previous poster.
    Usually, we get at least a couple of mentions of the full rank at some point.
     
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  15. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Captain

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    By the way on the lieutenant commander point you are wrong. They will still call the person a Lieutenant Commander every once in a while. And by the way that was an interesting situation it will be stupid for the captain to not be on the bridge at that time. I mean the tractor beam was disabled and a Star was being relighted and last but not least a shuttle was stolen. I believe that warrants the captain on the bridge. And before you go saying that it could have took the captain a while to get up on the bridge. The incident was several minutes long that is plenty of time for a captain to get up onto the bridge.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
  16. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    The writer of Second Sight admitted it was his intent that the guy commanding the Prometheus bridge was the ship's Captain.
     
  17. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Captain

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    Really. I find that interesting. We’re did you find that. I looked for stuff like that but never found anything. I Guess I should have looked harder
     
  18. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    It was part of a discussion on the subject on this very forum over a decade ago. I don't remember the site, but someone had a link to an interview where the writer stated as much. The character was supposed to be a Lt. Commander, as the writer didn't realize they were going to use a ship as large as the Nebula class in the episode (he was expecting a Miranda or Oberth). Then costuming screwed up and gave the guy Lieutenant JG's pips.
     
  19. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Captain

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    Wow Interesting. Yeah I knew costume screw up on the pips and I always through he was the captain. I mean it makes sense since it seem to have a small crew. I k ow why they did it so Sisko could lead and that was hard because he was only a commander and they needed some one below him. Also I’m this were a Miranda class I’m sure most people would believe he was the captain
     
  20. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    A Nebula class is supposed to have a crew of 900.
    Except Sisko doesn't take command, nor could he. An officer can't overrule a ship's captain while aboard his/her ship, even if the visiting officer outranks the captain. Even admirals have to respect a captain's command while aboard their ship.