Rank problems

[The Wormhole]

It was just a simple means of providing shorthand for the audience. "They have four pips on their collar, they're Captain."

DS9 made an attempt to have officers lower than Captain in command. The Defiant basically is Worf's command, and he's Lt. Commander. Then of course, there's Dax taking command of the Defiant during the War, complete with the crew addressing her as Captain.

Then there's the USS Prometheus from Second Sight which was commanded by a Lieutenant JG. Though, he was intended to be a Lt. Commander, costuming screwed up on his pips. Also, the episode's writer was under the impression the ship would be smaller than we saw on screen. On screen it was a Nebula class ship, which typically has a crew of 900, which should be sufficiently large enough to warrant an actual Captain to command.

They haven't shown many small Starfleet ships on ST, apart from maybe the Grissom.

Just off the top of my head, the Oberth, Nova, Defiant, Miranda and Constellation classes are pretty small. Also, Voyager should only have been commanded by a Commander, given its crew of 150. Discovery too, though maybe in that case being an experimental ship and so vital to the war effort might have warranted an O6 officer commanding.

 

[StarCruiser]

Then there's the old issue of the "rank" of Captain vs. the "position" of Captain...

In the real US Navy (which Starfleet is based on), any officer in command of a ship is that ship's Captain. They do not have to have the rank of Captain to be the Captain of that ship. Lieutenant Commanders are often in charge of Destroyers and some lesser ships as are Commanders. Lieutenants may be in charge of very small coastal craft as well. In all cases, they are the "Captain" of that craft.

Commodore is another such rank/position thing. The current US Navy doesn't have a rank of Commodore (instead, we have the insulting "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" because of congress critters) but, the position still exists as the leader of a submarine or surface squadron...

 

[Nerys Myk]

The screwed up Spock's rank a few times. Even with having a vet or two on staff.

 

[Gabriel]

It was just a simple means of providing shorthand for the audience. "They have four pips on their collar, they're Captain."

DS9 made an attempt to have officers lower than Captain in command. The Defiant basically is Worf's command, and he's Lt. Commander. Then of course, there's Dax taking command of the Defiant during the War, complete with the crew addressing her as Captain.

Then there's the USS Prometheus from Second Sight which was commanded by a Lieutenant JG. Though, he was intended to be a Lt. Commander, costuming screwed up on his pips. Also, the episode's writer was under the impression the ship would be smaller than we saw on screen. On screen it was a Nebula class ship, which typically has a crew of 900, which should be sufficiently large enough to warrant an actual Captain to command.

Just off the top of my head, the Oberth, Nova, Defiant, Miranda and Constellation classes are pretty small. Also, Voyager should only have been commanded by a Commander, given its crew of 150. Discovery too, though maybe in that case being an experimental ship and so vital to the war effort might have warranted an O6 officer commanding.

I mean in real world I completely understand why they want to make it easy for the audience. But in universe that’s just a waste of O-6 officers

 

[Gabriel]

Then there's the old issue of the "rank" of Captain vs. the "position" of Captain...

In the real US Navy (which Starfleet is based on), any officer in command of a ship is that ship's Captain. They do not have to have the rank of Captain to be the Captain of that ship. Lieutenant Commanders are often in charge of Destroyers and some lesser ships as are Commanders. Lieutenants may be in charge of very small coastal craft as well. In all cases, they are the "Captain" of that craft.

Commodore is another such rank/position thing. The current US Navy doesn't have a rank of Commodore (instead, we have the insulting "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" because of congress critters) but, the position still exists as the leader of a submarine or surface squadron...

That’s exactly what I just meant I’m sorry if I came up saying something else but that’s what I mean. I mean why should every ship had we commanded by a captain (Meaning 4 pip Officer)

 

[The Old Mixer]

My question is is why is nearly every starship commander in starfleet ranked a captain. I mean in all the navies of the world captains only command big ships but in Starfleet A captain can command a small ship. I don’t know it just seems like a waste of senior officers. I know that the out of universe answer is because they want to make it easy on the audience but what do you think the in universe answer is. I don’t know I just think will be interesting to see commanding officers of starships that aren’t all captains. And yes I know that both Sisko and Dax commanded the defiant and ranks lower than captain. I’m just thinking that if the small ship were commanded by commanders it could give less senior officer some more experience in actualy commanding a starship before moving up into the big ships.

I've merged this one into the existing "Rank problems" thread.

 

[Gabriel]

Why

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

IMO, they should have kept the Commodore rank from TOS during the TNG era and had a dual Captain/Commodore-Designate rank for senior captains like Picard (the title is determined by current function, "captain" when sailing solo (and internally), "commodore" when commanding multiple ships like the Tachyon Blockade in Reunification). I also partially agree with others that say that at least during normal operations smaller ships should be commanded by mid-level officers (commanders, lieutenant-commanders with the title of captain), but I would suggest long-term deep space assignments might warrant a captain (if potentially a junior one) regardless of the size of ship.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Why

Because it's preferable not to start a new thread for every spin-off thought on an existing topic.

 

[Gabriel]

IMO, they should have kept the Commodore rank from TOS during the TNG era and had a dual Captain/Commodore-Designate rank for senior captains like Picard (the title is determined by current function, "captain" when sailing solo (and internally), "commodore" when commanding multiple ships like the Tachyon Blockade in Reunification). I also partially agree with others that say that at least during normal operations smaller ships should be commanded by mid-level officers (commanders, lieutenant-commanders with the title of captain), but I would suggest long-term deep space assignments might warrant a captain (if potentially a junior one) regardless of the size of ship.

Exactly. I totally agree that a long term space exploration mission clearly warrants a captain with all the experience but just for normal operations it seems a little bit wasteful. And plus it gives junior officers command experience. Also it gives the lieutenant junior grade and Lieutenant ranks more responsibilities and more experience

 

[Jedman67]

Exactly. I totally agree that a long term space exploration mission clearly warrants a captain with all the experience but just for normal operations it seems a little bit wasteful. And plus it gives junior officers command experience. Also it gives the lieutenant junior grade and Lieutenant ranks more responsibilities and more experience

TV cares more about audience perception than accuracy. And as noted above, there were a handful of episodes which featured a lower ranking officer commanding a ship. Throughout voyagers run, Chakotay was wearing a Lt. Commander rank insignia (hard to tell since it was the "provisional") even though he was always addressed as "Commander." I think the intention was that he'd be considered the equivalent of a "Brevet" or "Acting" Commander with an "actual" rank of only Lt. C.

 

[Gabriel]

TV cares more about audience perception than accuracy. And as noted above, there were a handful of episodes which featured a lower ranking officer commanding a ship. Throughout voyagers run, Chakotay was wearing a Lt. Commander rank insignia (hard to tell since it was the "provisional") even though he was always addressed as "Commander." I think the intention was that he'd be considered the equivalent of a "Brevet" or "Acting" Commander with an "actual" rank of only Lt. C.

And that’s why sometimes TV annoys me. I all thought Chakotay was only a first officer so he is not really a commanding officer. I thought you’re going to mention Dax or the lieutenant commander who commanded the Prometheus and second sight. I thought there isn’t really evidence to prove that the lieutenant commander in second sight actually had command of the ship.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I thought there isn’t really evidence to prove that the lieutenant commander in second sight actually had command of the ship.

You're right. There isn't.

Just because he had bridge watch at that time doesn't mean he was the captain.

Chakotay was wearing a Lt. Commander rank insignia (hard to tell since it was the "provisional") even though he was always addressed as "Commander."

Common practice for any LCDR.

 

[Jedman67]

And that’s why sometimes TV annoys me. I all thought Chakotay was only a first officer so he is not really a commanding officer. I thought you’re going to mention Dax or the lieutenant commander who commanded the Prometheus and second sight. I thought there isn’t really evidence to prove that the lieutenant commander in second sight actually had command of the ship.

I really have no idea, I'm taking the word of the previous poster.

Common practice for any LCDR.

Usually, we get at least a couple of mentions of the full rank at some point.

 

[Gabriel]

You're right. There isn't.

Just because he had bridge watch at that time doesn't mean he was the captain.



Common practice for any LCDR.

By the way on the lieutenant commander point you are wrong. They will still call the person a Lieutenant Commander every once in a while. And by the way that was an interesting situation it will be stupid for the captain to not be on the bridge at that time. I mean the tractor beam was disabled and a Star was being relighted and last but not least a shuttle was stolen. I believe that warrants the captain on the bridge. And before you go saying that it could have took the captain a while to get up on the bridge. The incident was several minutes long that is plenty of time for a captain to get up onto the bridge.

 

[The Wormhole]

The writer of Second Sight admitted it was his intent that the guy commanding the Prometheus bridge was the ship's Captain.

 

[Gabriel]

The writer of Second Sight admitted it was his intent that the guy commanding the Prometheus bridge was the ship's Captain.

Really. I find that interesting. We’re did you find that. I looked for stuff like that but never found anything. I Guess I should have looked harder

 

[The Wormhole]

It was part of a discussion on the subject on this very forum over a decade ago. I don't remember the site, but someone had a link to an interview where the writer stated as much. The character was supposed to be a Lt. Commander, as the writer didn't realize they were going to use a ship as large as the Nebula class in the episode (he was expecting a Miranda or Oberth). Then costuming screwed up and gave the guy Lieutenant JG's pips.

 

[Gabriel]

It was part of a discussion on the subject on this very forum over a decade ago. I don't remember the site, but someone had a link to an interview where the writer stated as much. The character was supposed to be a Lt. Commander, as the writer didn't realize they were going to use a ship as large as the Nebula class in the episode (he was expecting a Miranda or Oberth). Then costuming screwed up and gave the guy Lieutenant JG's pips.

Wow Interesting. Yeah I knew costume screw up on the pips and I always through he was the captain. I mean it makes sense since it seem to have a small crew. I k ow why they did it so Sisko could lead and that was hard because he was only a commander and they needed some one below him. Also I’m this were a Miranda class I’m sure most people would believe he was the captain

 

[The Wormhole]

I mean it makes sense since it seem to have a small crew.

A Nebula class is supposed to have a crew of 900.

I k ow why they did it so Sisko could lead and that was hard because he was only a commander and they needed some one below him.

Except Sisko doesn't take command, nor could he. An officer can't overrule a ship's captain while aboard his/her ship, even if the visiting officer outranks the captain. Even admirals have to respect a captain's command while aboard their ship.