Rank of Doctor

[shauncroucher]

Hi,

As the EMH does not wear any insignia, do we know what rank he is? Is it the same as TNG (Commander)?

Cheers
Shaun

 

[C_Miller]

He doesn't have a rank. When the ship set off, he wasn't even a member of the crew, just to be used in the case of Emergency.

 

[shauncroucher]

He doesn't have a rank. When the ship set off, he wasn't even a member of the crew, just to be used in the case of Emergency.

So who would make the call if there was suspicion that the captain was medically unfit, also he becomes so much more than just the Emh over time?

Shaun

 

[Sam_I_Am]

The Doctor still retains the authority to relieve the captain (or any other crew member) of duty if they are medically unfit. This is the same power shared by other medical officers regardless of rank (Commander* Crusher can relieve Captain Picard, Lieutenant Commander* McCoy can relieve Captain Kirk). For an example of the Doctor (EMH) trying to relieve Captain Janeway, see the episode "Year Of Hell".

* I know Doctors aren't usually referred to by rank, but I'm just demonstrating how their rank doesn't affect their power to relieve higher-ranked officers.

 

[BillJ]

Regardless of rank, a ships' doctor exists outside of the chain of command. I always thought a civilian doctor would be an interesting addition to one of the series. Deep Space Nine would have been a perfect fit if the series had taken place on Bajor as originally envisioned.

 

[milo bloom]

Regardless of rank, a ships' doctor exists outside of the chain of command. I always thought a civilian doctor would be an interesting addition to one of the series. Deep Space Nine would have been a perfect fit if the series had taken place on Bajor as originally envisioned.

I know folks try to block it from their memories, but Phlox was a civilian on Enterprise. Not sure if the issue of him having to relieve Archer of command ever came up, I missed a lot of the second and third seasons.

 

[BillJ]

Good point. But like Enterprise, nothing really made him feel different from the other Starfleet doctors we've seen in the past.

 

[Anwar]

Would there really BE a big difference between a Fleet doctor and a civilian one? I mean, the way McCoy acted in TOS you'd think he WAS a civilian Doctor and not part of Starfleet.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Would there really BE a big difference between a Fleet doctor and a civilian one? I mean, the way McCoy acted in TOS you'd think he WAS a civilian Doctor and not part of Starfleet.

A lot of military doctors act that way.

 

[Anwar]

That's what I mean, what would the real difference be between a civilian Doctor and McCoy's attitude?

 

[CobraCommander]

I felt that by Season 6, Janeway should have given the doctor an officer's commission. Without being a commisioned officer, he had few rights over how the lowliest crew member could treat him and talk behind his back. By keeping him stripped of rank, she was acknowledging that he wasn't a sentient being and a full member of her crew. Cobra

 

[Guy Gardener]

That would have made the rank of the other officers evermore meaningless since after she had alreay gaven "imaginary" provisional rank to a bunch of dirty terrorists they were forced to impersonate respect for.

Does Morale fall under the medical remit?

that would have given Neelix much much broader authority than he ever chose to use, that ipso facto in the pursuit of morale the hedgehog could even issue binding and legal orders to the Captain.

Tommy and Kes could fling about medical orders too?

How much "McCoy" is Shatner channeling in his Shit my dad Says performance since he is playing a retired navy doctor.

 

[FormerLurker]

Doctor isn't a rank, it's a medical degree. :P

 

[Guy Gardener]

CMO is a transitory rank held by the Boss Doctor however.

It's somewhat like what Potter gave Hawkeye to boss around Charles in the Operating theatre because his rank did not reflect his skill as a meatball surgeon.

O'Brien is Chief of Operations on DS9 and Chief Engineer on the Defiant which means that he can boss around admirals if they get in the way of his speciality with crap orders but one step to his left and a third year caet can order miles to do 40 push ups.

 

[The_Baroness]

The thing is, Crusher, Bashir, McCoy and the EMH are Doctors first, Starfleet second.

Rank is unimportant, whether they're a civilian, a cadet or an admiral, at the end of the day they're responsible for as many lives as the Commanding officer is, they hold the responsibility as to whether someone lives or dies and so in certain circumstances they get the final say regardless as to who they're talking to.

I believe the Cheif Medical Officer is the only member of crew of a ship, base, or whatever who can issue orders to anyone and can court-martial their CO if they disobey said orders regardless of how many pips they have on their own collar.

 

[Timo]

Just to nitpick, I'd think that all the medical specialists can give "medical orders" to some degree, even if the power to mutiny is exclusive to the CMO. Say, the ship's dentist can always tell the XO to keep her mouth shut for medical reasons...

I don't know how formal such authority is, though. An engineer can tell his superior officer to stay away from that live wire, and the officer will obey if he values his life - but is he legally obligated to? Probably not. However, if a low-ranking medic (say, Ensign Lense from "Explorers") tells Commander Keen that Ablespaceman Spiff ought to rest his left hand for the remainder of the week, this may well legally bind the Commander from issuing orders where Spiff would have to use his left hand.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CobraCommander]

I don't feel that every person on Voyager should have a rank. They have the option and choice whether or not to be in Starfleet or operate as a civilian contractor. Neelix and Kes traditionally operated as civilians. They were not trained as Starfleet personnel. The doctor started out as Starfleet property wearing a Starfleet uniform. At the end of Voyager, he was still wearing a uniform. What was his Starfleet status with Voyager and with the rest of the Starfleet structure? His fellow EMH Mark One's were performing slave labor in the mines. I saw this a disturbing Federation trend. Was he still considered property or a civilian? He did demonstrate the desire to adapt his programming to better serve the needs of the crew in the event of their incapacitation. He participated in combat firefights (Friendship One, USS Promethius, Kazon takeover, Equinox, etc... ). He also wanted to achieve more in his life.

If Maquis terrorists could be given the ranks of Commander and Lieutenant, why shouldn't he have a rank? Unless a medical situation is present, the officer with the lower rank answers to the one with the higher rank. Dr. Bashir was ordered around by everyone with a higher rank. Only in certain circumstances could he take control. Lastly, imagine Counselor Troi commanding the Enterprise even though Data is the more capable in a crisis situation. Cobra

 

[C.E. Evans]

I felt that by Season 6, Janeway should have given the doctor an officer's commission.

"Lieutenant Commander Doctor" just doesn't sound right, IMO.

If he can go without a name, he can go without a rank. But as others have mentioned, as the ship's doctor, he had the final say in all matters regarding the crew's physical and mental health and that extended to the captain as well.

 

[henbane]

Doctor isn't a rank, it's a medical degree. :P

Actually - that's wrong too. Doctor is a PhD, not a medical degree. In medicine, medical practitioners use the term doctor as a courtesy title only - most of them a not doctors (unless they also have a PhD). Same as vets, dentists, chiropractors and similar professions that have "adopted" the use of the academic title doctor.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I don't feel that every person on Voyager should have a rank. They have the option and choice whether or not to be in Starfleet or operate as a civilian contractor. Neelix and Kes traditionally operated as civilians. They were not trained as Starfleet personnel. The doctor started out as Starfleet property wearing a Starfleet uniform. At the end of Voyager, he was still wearing a uniform. What was his Starfleet status with Voyager and with the rest of the Starfleet structure? His fellow EMH Mark One's were performing slave labor in the mines. I saw this a disturbing Federation trend. Was he still considered property or a civilian? He did demonstrate the desire to adapt his programming to better serve the needs of the crew in the event of their incapacitation. He participated in combat firefights (Friendship One, USS Promethius, Kazon takeover, Equinox, etc... ). He also wanted to achieve more in his life.

If Maquis terrorists could be given the ranks of Commander and Lieutenant, why shouldn't he have a rank? Unless a medical situation is present, the officer with the lower rank answers to the one with the higher rank. Dr. Bashir was ordered around by everyone with a higher rank. Only in certain circumstances could he take control. Lastly, imagine Counselor Troi commanding the Enterprise even though Data is the more capable in a crisis situation. Cobra

Tom was given pips. The rest including Chakotay were given "provisional rank badges" which were rectangular plates with stripes printed on top to indicate rank. After Janeway died in Before and After "someone" awarded Chakotay four Pips to demonstrate that his Captaincy was real...

The Maquis were prison labour who's only other option was slavery under the Kazon if they opted to be marooned on Ocampa rather than put up with forced conscription... besides the Maquis is an autocracy not a democracy, they do what Chakotay says or they get the bash unless there's a leadership challenge...

Was Chakotay the XO because he was the leader of the Maquis or was Chakotay the XO because of his awarded hypothetical and imaginary rank? What if their was a power struggle inside the Maquis that by their traditions Chakotay fell from Grace? Would he accordingly lose his position of if he was no longer representative of the ruling body of the Maquis?

Imagine Dalby assumed control the Maquis through a fist fight? Promotion though insubordination and mutiny, y'know, the Maquis way.

(Despite the letter of Janeways unification speech in caretaker) If the crews are truly unified doesn't that make the Starfleet crew as Maquis as the Maquis crew are Starfleet... And if winning a fist fight against Chakotay is all you need to assert lionized primacy over the Maquis and secure the political appointment to XO of Voyager due to the need of proportional representation of a chunk of Janeways workforce she can't expect 100 percent loyalty from... Then Harry Kim if he could follow this train of thought could have been Voyagers First Officer three weeks into their mission home if he could beat up some old guy who was nearly 50.

The Doctor always was and is property and that doesn't change just because he's been programmed to make us believe that he "feels" otherwise.