But AI data centers use so much electricity, you wouldn't believe it. And that has to come from somewhere.
Random TOS stuff
- Thread starter Nerys Myk
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Exactly. TOS clearly operated in a capitalistic context; the examples are everywhere, across all three seasons. Star Trek abounds with references to money, currency, credits, buying, selling, traders, merchants, merchant marines, wealth, numeric prices, and more ... and all of that exists within the Federation. The moneyless paradigm is pure revisionism.Almost like when they started the whole "there's no money in the future" thing in TVH, they were just pulling it out of their asses.
Behind the scenes, I don't know whether the revision technically started in TVH, but Roddenberry was certainly rewriting history in Next Gen:
Ronald Moore (1997 AOL chat) said:
Hooey indeed. The notion that a spacefaring human civilization can function with no medium of exchange has always obstructed my suspension of disbelief. But let's not argue about the implausibility of such a society overall, let's just show the evidence that TOS was not it. One day I'll do a proper article on the whole thing, but for now here are some of the many references I've collected (I've left out some of the weaker ones):
| 0x00 Cage | PIKE: To the point of considering resigning. BOYCE: And do what? PIKE: ... I might go into business on Regulus or on the Orion colony. BOYCE: You, an Orion trader, dealing in green animal women, slaves? |
| 1x03 Mudd's | EVE: I apologize for what he said, sir. He's used to buying and selling people. |
| 1x03 Mudd's | COMPUTER: … Transport of stolen goods. Purchase of space vessel with counterfeit currency. |
| 1x03 Mudd's | MUDD: Lonely, isolated, overworked, rich lithium miners! Girls, do you still want husbands, hmm? ... I'll get you a man who can buy you a whole planet. |
| 1x03 Mudd's | CHILDRESS: You're homely! I've got enough in crystals already to buy queens by the gross! |
| 1x03 Mudd's | CHILDRESS: Let's get right to business. You want lithium crystals and we've got them. KIRK: Fine. I'm authorized to pay an equitable price. CHILDRESS: We're not sure they're for sale, Captain. We might prefer a swap. |
| 1x07 Charlie | [In his 1967 memo on The Omega Glory costuming mistake, Robert Justman, in consultation with Roddenberry, stated that the Antares crew were the equivalent of merchant marine personnel; the merchant service/merchant marines are later mentioned on screen in Bread and Circuses and The Ultimate Computer] |
| 1x26 Devil | VANDERBERG: We've already hit huge new pergium deposits. I'm afraid to tell you how much gold and platinum and rare earths we've uncovered. KIRK: I'm delighted to hear that, Chief. Once Mother Horta tells her kids what to look for, you people are going to be embarrassingly rich. |
| 1x27 Errand | CLAYMARE: A Vulcan trader, perhaps. A dealer in kevas and trillium. SPOCK: Vulcan merchants are not uncommon, Captain. It is a practical approach. |
| 1x27 Errand | KIRK: The Federation has invested a great deal of money in our training. They're about due for a small return. |
| 1x28 City | EDITH: ... And more, I think that one day they'll take all the money they spend now on war and death-- KIRK: And make them spend it on life? EDITH: Yes. You see the same things that I do. We speak the same language. |
| 1x29 Operation | KIRK: Help them. I don't care what it takes or costs. You've got to help them. |
| 2x01 Catspaw | DESALLE: Maybe we can't break it, but I'll bet you credits to navy beans we can put a dent in it. [a future version of betting "dollars to donuts"] |
| 2x04 Adonais | KIRK: Mister Chekov, I think you've earned your pay for the week. |
| 2x06 Doomsday | KIRK: Scotty, you've just earned your pay for the week. |
| 2x09 Apple | KIRK: Trying to get yourself killed... do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you? SPOCK: One hundred twenty-two thousand, two hundred-- [clearly citing the exact monetary cost in credits] |
| 2x10 Mirror | KIRK2: All right, Spock. Whatever your game is, I'll play it. You want credits, I'll give them to you. You'll be a rich man. |
| 2x12 I, Mudd | MUDD: Now listen, Spock, you may be a wonderful science officer, but believe me, you couldn't sell fake patents to your mother. SPOCK: I fail to understand why I should care to induce my mother to purchase falsified patents. |
| 2x12 I, Mudd | KIRK: Did you pay royalties to the owners of those patents? SPOCK: He did not pay royalties. |
| 2x13 Tribbles | UHURA: Are you selling them? JONES / BARKEEP: [extended example of typical Federation commerce involving the terms sell, credits, price, mark-up, and profit; evidence that this is normal in the Federation is seen in the multiple references to regulations, no record of Jones having broken the law, and Uhura's immediate readiness to spend money on an item she wants; furthermore, no crewmember even remotely comments on any of this being unusual, different, odd, offensive, or outdated] UHURA: All right, what are you selling them for? |
| 2x13 Tribbles | UHURA: Well, Cyrano Jones says a tribble is the only love that money can buy. |
| 2x13 Tribbles | JONES: ... do they breed quickly? Of course, that's how I maintain my stock ["the inventory of goods of a merchant or manufacturer" -Merriam-Webster] JONES: ... and at six credits a head, well, that is, a body, it mounts up [revenue]. KIRK: You should sell an instruction and maintenance manual for this thing. |
| 2x13 Tribbles | SPOCK: He is a licensed asteroid locator and prospector. ... he's obtained a marginal living by engaging in the buying and selling of rare merchandise, including, unfortunately, tribbles. |
| 2x14 Bread | KIRK: Yes, at the academy. [Merik] was dropped in his fifth year. He went into the merchant service. |
| 2x15 Journey | SAREK: Under Federation law, Coridan can be protected and its wealth administered for the benefit of its people. SAREK: Coridan has nearly unlimited wealth of dilithium crystals, but it is under-populated and unprotected. This invites illegal mining operations. [the reason to conduct illegal mining of course being profit] |
| 2x24 Ultimate | M5: Geologist Carstairs served on merchant marine freighters in this area. Once visited planet on geology survey for mining company. |
| 3x04 Enterprise | MCCOY: Spock, I don't believe it. [now to the Romulan commander:] There's no price you could pay that would make him sell out. |
| 3x16 Whom Gods | GARTH: Limitless power, limitless wealth, and solar systems ruled by the elite. |
| 3x21 Requiem | KIRK: We're in need! We'll pay for it, work for it, trade for it. |
| 3x21 Requiem | SPOCK: As undiscovered da Vincis, they would be priceless. |
| 3x21 Requiem | SPOCK: A man of Flint's obvious wealth and impeccable taste scarcely needs to hang fakes. |
| 3x21 Requiem | UHURA: The planet was purchased thirty years ago by a Mister Brack, a wealthy financier and recluse. |
| 3x21 Requiem | SPOCK: Your wealth and your intellect are the product of centuries of acquisition. |
So yeah, this is another area where Roddenberry's unchallenged lofty ideas were not sharing a cab with reality.
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Yeah, it’s not entirely clear if Kirk means they don’t use money at all in the future, or that they don’t use money, i.e. cash — the problem being that either works in the context of the scene.
In that post, I tried to be quasi-comprehensive to show that this occurred in a lot of episodes across the seasons. However, that risks looking like a gish gallop and potentially inviting others to try to refute the whole idea by arguing against the applicability of the weakest examples (he's just speaking figuratively, she's an alien, etc.).
So if anyone is trying to educate somebody who's utterly convinced there's no money in Star Trek, here's a shorter version focusing on literal money use in the context of the Federation, Starfleet, and Enterprise crew members:
| 0x00 Cage | PIKE: ... I might go into business on Regulus or on the Orion colony. BOYCE: You, an Orion trader, dealing in green animal women, slaves? |
| 1x03 Mudd's | CHILDRESS: Let's get right to business. You want lithium crystals and we've got them. KIRK: Fine. I'm authorized to pay an equitable price. |
| 1x07 Charlie | [The 1967 Justman/Roddenberry memo on The Omega Glory costuming mistake said the Antares crew were the equivalent of merchant marine personnel; see also 2x14 & 2x24] |
| 1x27 Errand | CLAYMARE: A Vulcan trader, perhaps. A dealer in kevas and trillium. SPOCK: Vulcan merchants are not uncommon, Captain. It is a practical approach. |
| 1x27 Errand | KIRK: The Federation has invested a great deal of money in our training. They're about due for a small return. |
| 2x01 Catspaw | DESALLE: ... I'll bet you credits to navy beans we can put a dent in it. |
| 2x09 Apple | KIRK: Trying to get yourself killed... do you know how much Starfleet has invested in you? SPOCK: One hundred twenty-two thousand, two hundred-- |
| 2x10 Mirror | KIRK2*: All right, Spock. Whatever your game is, I'll play it. You want credits, I'll give them to you. You'll be a rich man. |
| 2x12 I, Mudd | KIRK: Did you pay royalties to the owners of those patents? SPOCK: He did not pay royalties. |
| 2x13 Tribbles | UHURA: Are you selling them? JONES / BARKEEP: [price haggling involving the terms sell, credits, price, mark-up, and profit, with multiple contextual references to Federation/Starfleet regulations and the law] UHURA: All right, what are you selling them for? |
| 2x13 Tribbles | UHURA: Well, Cyrano Jones says a tribble is the only love that money can buy. |
| 2x14 Bread | KIRK: Yes, at the academy. [Merik] was dropped in his fifth year. He went into the merchant service. |
| 2x24 Ultimate | M5: Geologist Carstairs served on merchant marine freighters in this area. Once visited planet on geology survey for mining company. |
| 3x21 Requiem | KIRK: We're in need! We'll pay for it, work for it, trade for it. |
| 3x21 Requiem | UHURA: The planet was purchased thirty years ago by a Mister Brack, a wealthy financier and recluse. |
* The Terran Empire using money doesn't prove the Federation also uses money, but this line does support the fact that the writers consistently used "credits" as the name of the currency across multiple episodes.
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Humanity defined.
So about "credits to navy beans",
(...the funnest fun begins at 8:07 BTW...)Part of me liked to think that TOS had used currency slang metaphorically as they dealt with various planets that still used it and Starfleet wasn't going to meddle... though a couple episodes do directly refute this no matter how much mental hopscotch transpires. Since then, yeah, there's no consistent way around it, to the point even a DS9 episode lampooned it with Nog making a quip to Jake.
And speakin' of mental hopscotch,
WHY ARE WE BEHAVING LIKE A GROUP OF SAVAGES?????
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