Random Thought: Was Janeway Killed Because She was So Polarizing?

[Lynx]

In most cases, when it comes to legendary bands, certain changes will lead to a decrease in quality and popularity.

Look at Deep Purple. They haven't made one decent album since Ritchie Blackmore left.

And Voyager will never be the same without Kes, Janeway, Neelix and Tuvok.

And there are loads of other bands who didn't reach a level of fame before having a fair few member shake-ups.

What the Voyager books are doing at the moment isn't what you want from a Voyager book. That's absolutely fine. That's no different to someone saying they don't like the Mirror Universe stuff in the DS9 relaunch. But that's the way it is for now. It might change in the future - if you're right and thousands of Voyager fans have stopped buying the books because they killed Janeway then I imagine it'll change pretty damn soon.

There's no Voyager books on the schedule for next year, so I imagine by the time the next one is commissioned the sales figures for the last two will have all come in. If we continue down this track then it must have worked, if it gets changed up then I imagine you're proved right.

But you haven't even read the books to decide if you like them or not. Hell, if you agree to read it I'll buy you a copy of Full Circle. Look at how much you've written in this thread, you could probably have finished it in the time you've spent arguing here so this is clearly not a 'I don't have the time' issue.

Well, thanks for what I actually consider as a nice offer.

But without being rude, I have to neglect it because I refuse to read those books for the same reasons why I refuse to watch "The Gift" and "Fury" again. It's a matter of principles. Besides that, I simply don't want to read a book about grieving and despair among my favorite characters.

Allyn Gibson wrote:

Even though I have a bootleg of the '74 jam session John and Paul had in Los Angeles, I don't consider that a Beatles reunion.

But had Paul, George, and Ringo released "All For Love" in '96, I'd have considered that a legitimate addition to the canon.

That doesn't mean I think John was inessential. Far from it. But things happen, people move on, people die. That's a fact of life. And in '96, John Lennon was dead.

This doesn't mean that I think that Paul and Ringo should do an album and release it as a Beatles album. Paul and Ringo have played enough on each others albums that it's not outside the realm of possibility that they'll play together again.

The point of this? Death happens. You either accept it, or you live in denial. It's churlish to say that there's something wrong with someone else because they're willing to accept something that you're in denial about. Voyager has moved on. If that's not your cuppa, maybe it's time for you to move on to something else. *shrug*

No, the current relaunch is definitely not my cuppa. So I guess I live in denial

But what is it to move on to? Nothing when it comes to SF (fortunately there is NCIS, a series with good characters and good stories but it's not an SF-series).

Believe me, I don't want to put anyone down for what he/she likes. It's just that I find it hard to understand how anyone can appreciate seeing (or reading about) favorite characters being killed off, destroyed, dumped for other reasons and replaced by characters who weren't in the series and who I find nothing more than extras, like Carey, Ayala etc.

For me, Voyager is and will always be the ship which has Janeway, Chakotay, Kes, Paris, Torres, Tuvok, Neelix, Kim and The Doctor as main characters, OK let's add Seven too even if I'm not that fond of the character.

Reading about characters I find uninteresting and with possible references to Janeway's death or events in "The Gift" and "Fury" is definitely not what I want to read about.

And yes, I consider "Free As A Bird" and "Real Love" as part of the Beatles canon.

 

[Thrawn]

Believe me, I don't want to put anyone down for what he/she likes.

Then stop putting us down. It's an honest opinion, just as fair as yours.

It's just that I find it hard to understand how anyone can appreciate seeing (or reading about) favorite characters being killed off, destroyed, dumped for other reasons and replaced by characters who weren't in the series and who I find nothing more than extras, like Carey, Ayala etc.

These new characters are far more than extras, substantially more interesting than Carey and Ayala. They were designed to have enough story to make them the equal of all the other important characters on the ship. Carey and Ayala weren't, they were designed to be bit players. You understand the distinction, yes?

And if so, how can you "find" them to be "nothing more than extras" when you haven't even read them?

I can understand "I loved Janeway, she was the reason I was interested, I don't want to read the books without her." That makes sense to me. As a TV show, it would've been pretty unlikely I would continue to watch TNG if Patrick Stewart had left the show, for instance. (Though I'd continue reading the books now if he left, because they've done a much better job of fleshing out the backing characters so they really have stories of their own.) Now, why would I have stopped watching? Because Riker would've had command, and I didn't like Riker very much.

But your point of view seems different, to me. Chakotay, who you like, is now the one in command. Your problem isn't the same as mine. I knew what the show would look like without Picard, and I wasn't a fan. You have no idea what Voyager is like, with these new characters, but are convinced that you couldn't possibly like it, and I can't figure out how you could be that sure.

Every time a huge change in scope or story happens, like Janeway's death, in any of the series I read, my response is "whoa crap, that's ballsy, that could really screw up why I love these books, but I want to see if they pull it off and why they thought it was important!" And if they fail, as with Star Wars, then I stop. It's weird to me that you hear that there are new characters that most people seem to really love, a new direction that most people seem to really approve of (even those sad about Janeway's death), but you're convinced - knowing essentially nothing about that direction - that it, and all the characters, have to be inferior to the old ones.

What makes the old ones so special? They came out of someone's brain, just like the new ones. And the new ones have the benefit of being written after the show/books have attained momentum and weight, so they can be written to fit in and provide interesting new perspectives. They should fit together better.

EDIT: Hell, even the "bring Janeway back" site you link to from your personal webpage says "Full Circle is one of the best Trek books ever written". I realize you don't approve of the creative direction, but I feel like if you're this pissed off about it you should at least be a bit more aware of exactly what it is you're criticizing. (The website also mentions several other criticisms that were all addressed and resolved in Unworthy, btw.)

If you want it in practical terms, writers are going to be much more willing to take feedback if you can explain why the new characters are not up to your standards. "They could never be good enough for me!" doesn't exactly mean much. If you can articulate exactly why Janeway mattered to you so much, and why that same sense is lacking in the new books, it would help your case. Hell, it would actually be a case, where right now you have nothing.

Right now, they know they've lost a sale with you, but even if they did read your 8,000 posts on the subject, they would know more about random rock band revivals than exactly what qualities were so important to you in the fiction.

 

[Sci]

I'm curious, do you count "Free As A Bird" and "Real Love" as part of the Beatles canon?

Absolutely. There's never been any doubt in my mind on that point. And if "Now and Then" (the third Lennon demo) had been finished, I'd have counted that, too. (And I really think that the remasters should have included "FAAB" and "Real Love" -- and "The Beatles Movie Medley" -- on Past Masters.)

But "All For Love" is a different case. That's the McCartney/Harrison composition they recorded during the "Real Love" sessions in February and March of '95. It only had three of the Beatles recording together, so would it have counted? Should it have counted?

I'm inclined to accept any recording made of the surviving Beatles (but not including anyone else) as a legitimate part of the Beatles canon if they release it under the Beatles name, m'self. But, there again, my reaction to hearing that McCartney and Starr had played together a couple of months ago was to say, "Hey, the Beatles got together again!," so I may be more liberal than others on that.

 

[Thrawn]

Whereas I would say... who cares? It's all semantics anyway. If you like the music, great. If not, don't listen to it.

 

[Sci]

Whereas I would say... who cares? It's all semantics anyway. If you like the music, great. If not, don't listen to it.

Dude, it's not just music. It's the Beatles!

 

[Thrawn]

Fair enough.

 

[aelius]

Thrawn, I understand you don't like the post NJO direction for Star Wars. But I just have one question. How could that whiny little putz Jason be your favorite character????
I mean really, according to the editors of the NJO he would have been killed then if not for the intervention of Lucas. Anakin was supposed to be the hero of the NJO and I think he would have been a much better one.
Having read all of the post NJO books I can totally see Jason falling the way he did. And I think it made for some fine drama. Is the writing always as good as it could be. No. But Star Wars books have always been uneven in that regard.
Notice I stated my beliefs without impugning yours. I try to be polite with my disagreements.
As for the Janeway question, I posted my way up from Ensign to Lt. Cmdr on that way back when and am not going to get into it again.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Is KISS really KISS without Ace (Whose new solo album rocks) Frehley and Peter (Breast cancer survivor. Really.) Criss? I hope to God so, I paid $100 to see them next month.

As for Janeway... was there ever this much conversation about her when she was alive? This much controversy over anything? Much like the death of Captain America, the story of those left behind can be as exciting and compelling as any before the death in question. Janeway still has as much influence on these characters as she did when she was alive, and the new direction is a character study of how Kathryn Janeway influenced these characters and their lives even beyond her death. I think we'll learn more about both Janeway and the supporting cast with this direction than we ever would have with Janeway alive sipping coffee and complaining about the Admiralty.

 

[Kataaran]

Maybe Pocket books should have had the balls to not name the books Star Trek Voyager, called them Star Trek DQ or something. I do agree that once they got home the Voyager premise was done.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Maybe Pocket books should have had the balls to not name the books Star Trek Voyager, called them Star Trek DQ or something. I do agree that once they got home the Voyager premise was done.

You know very well that if Pocket called the new series "Delta Quadrant", and it featured the USS Voyager and most of the characters from that show, people would be saying that Pocket "didn't have the balls" to call the series "Star Trek: Voyager".

Contractually, I would think, Pocket would have to brand books based on "Voyager" characters with the "Voyager" label. "Balls" have nothing to do with red tape.

 

[Kataaran]

OK, then explain Titan and New Frontier.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Contractually, I would think, Pocket would have to brand books based on "Voyager" characters with the "Voyager" label.

That one's easy to disprove. Look at any A Time To... and tell me which series label is on the front and spine. Or look at any of the Double Helix novels, and tell me how, say, Red Sector or Quarantine are branded.

 

[Steve Roby]

OK, then explain Titan and New Frontier.

What's to explain? Riker left TNG at the end of Nemesis to take command of Titan. It's a new series, and Next Generation is still going with Picard on the Enterprise. New Frontier is a new captain, a new ship, a lot of new characters, in a new setting.

 

[Kataaran]

And the Voyager relaunch is a new premise therefore it should maybe have had a new name. If it's ok for one set of books why not the other?

 

[Dayton Ward]

Because, like DS9 before it and unlike New Frontier and Titan, Star Trek: Voyager is itself an established brand name with a history that Pocket wishes to extend by promoting new adventures set aboard that ship? The same reason recent books like Greater than the Sum and Losing the Peace still carry a TNG label?

The fact that some folks might take issue with the direction of the new ongoing series doesn't negate that, or force a need for a name change.

 

[Therin of Andor]

That one's easy to disprove. Look at any A Time To... and tell me which series label is on the front and spine. Or look at any of the Double Helix novels, and tell me how, say, Red Sector or Quarantine are branded.

"A Time..." books were generic "Star Trek", IIRC, but with a TNG movie inspired font.

"Double Helix" was originally announced as linked crossovers (TNG, DS9, Spock and McCoy in TNG era, VOY, NF and Stagazer era), like "Day of Honor" had been, but then, based on TNG being such a good seller at the time, they became a TNG mini-series. "Red Sector" works perfectly well as a TNG novel: check out the cover! The DS9, VOY and Stargazer covers deliberately feature TNG cast members, too. Beverly ousted her husband, Jack, in the Stargazer one, even though she's barely in it! (I still have a jpg of the original art.)

This type of thing would be a case by case basis, of course, but if Pocket is paying out $$$$ for a VOY license, they're hardly going to rebrand as the unknown "Delta Quadrant" and risk losing sales to VOY fans looking for VOY books.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And the Voyager relaunch is a new premise therefore it should maybe have had a new name. If it's ok for one set of books why not the other?

They're waiting till the Voyager ship is... killed off permanently!

 

[Kataaran]

This type of thing would be a case by case basis, of course, but if Pocket is paying out $$$$ for a VOY license, they're hardly going to rebrand as the unknown "Delta Quadrant" and risk losing sales to VOY fans looking for VOY books.

Don't you think Voyager fans might recognise the words Delta Quadrant?

 

[Thrawn]

Thrawn, I understand you don't like the post NJO direction for Star Wars. But I just have one question. How could that whiny little putz Jason be your favorite character????
I mean really, according to the editors of the NJO he would have been killed then if not for the intervention of Lucas. Anakin was supposed to be the hero of the NJO and I think he would have been a much better one.
Having read all of the post NJO books I can totally see Jason falling the way he did. And I think it made for some fine drama. Is the writing always as good as it could be. No. But Star Wars books have always been uneven in that regard.
Notice I stated my beliefs without impugning yours. I try to be polite with my disagreements.
As for the Janeway question, I posted my way up from Ensign to Lt. Cmdr on that way back when and am not going to get into it again.

Well, we're a bit off topic here, but since you ask.

For whatever reason it was done, killing Anakin instead of Jacen was a really surprising move. It upended my usual expectations. Then, Jacen became the hero... and his huge heroic turn happened in Traitor, which is one of the most powerful pieces of writing in all of Star Wars. Totally cemented him as the next Character Worth Following for me, successfully handing off the adventures to the next generation, with a morality distinct from the previous generation. Exactly what they needed to do.

Then, even when he fell, I was pretty curious about that, and I definitely thought that the "both light and dark are capable of being abused" mentality of Betrayal was fascinating. My problem with Legacy of the Force didn't happen until Inferno - as soon as Jacen became evil, they made him stupid! He became the stereotypical evil ranting villain for no reason at all! Traviss portrayed the moment where he got his Sith powers as this amazing, freeing moment, where suddenly he could see everything and how it fit together. Then, next book, he's randomly harassing and killing Jedi Academy people for no reason at all, like that's not going to turn the Jedi against him. Just pissed me off.

Add to that Luke deciding that he's irredeemable - despite the fact that Vader, apparently, still had good in him - and it just became dumb. They took a complex, ambiguous character worth following as either a hero or anti-hero, made him stupid, then told us he couldn't be saved, and killed him off. And now it's back to being about Luke and Han and everyone again, despite the fact that they're, what, 80 now? It's stupid.

After the Empire is defeated, Star Wars has this obvious question - what do you do next? And the Yuuzhan Vong were obviously a temporary solution, but then by the end of NJO, they had solved it. We had Jacen, and a new understanding of the Force, to recast the traditional morality plays in different terms and explore the SW universe from another perspective. Then they killed off their own answer to the question, and in doing so, put the whole SW universe back hovering around that elephant in the room again. What's next? Well, just the same shit over again, apparently.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

Voyager is the hero ship of the series, thus the name. No confusion. Characters come and go but the ship remains the same. It's that simple. If someone picks up a copy of Star Trek: Voyager with the expectation of it being Star Trek: Janeway, that's their own misconception. Just as Star Trek: Deep Space Nine is not about the ongoing adventures of Ben Sisko.