Random Thought: Was Janeway Killed Because She was So Polarizing?

[rahullak]

Yep.

ST:TNG = USS Enterprise in the 24th century
ST:Voyager = USS Voyager
ST:Enterprise = Enterprise NX01, 22nd century
ST: Deep Space Nine = Deep Space Nine/Terok Nor the spacestation
ST:Titan = U.S.S Titan, 24th century
etc.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Don't you think Voyager fans might recognise the words Delta Quadrant?

Okay, you tell me: Why does Pocket continue to call the books "Star Trek: Voyager" and not "Delta Quadrant".

 

[bbailey861]

OK, then explain Titan and New Frontier.

What's to explain? Riker left TNG at the end of Nemesis to take command of Titan. It's a new series, and Next Generation is still going with Picard on the Enterprise. New Frontier is a new captain, a new ship, a lot of new characters, in a new setting.

And that, folks, is exactly the way the military (OK, a military style organization) operates. People are promoted, posted, retire, and unfortunately die in the line of duty as well. The latter two naturally making the first two occur. While it was sad and surprising, I was glad that Janeway was killed. Not necessarily that it was her specifically but the fact that it was a major character. Seeing the grief of her subordinates, and the moving on that took place was very real. I look forward to the future publications in both Voyager and the other series.

Byron

 

[Lynx]

^^
I don't have the slightest interest in reading about "grief and moving on". I want to read about the real Voyager characters, the characters from the series.

Dark Gilligan wrote:

Voyager is the hero ship of the series, thus the name. No confusion. Characters come and go but the ship remains the same. It's that simple. If someone picks up a copy of Star Trek: Voyager with the expectation of it being Star Trek: Janeway, that's their own misconception. Just as Star Trek: Deep Space Nine is not about the ongoing adventures of Ben Sisko.

Oh, come on. What would the TOS fans said if Kirk, Spock and the other main characters were killed off and removed from the Kirk-era Enterprise and we would have some bogus crew with Captain Iggy Bundy or something like that in charge. No one would read those books.

Star Trek Voyager should be about the ship and its crew, the characters in the TV series.

 

[Steve Roby]

ETA: Oh, never mind.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^^
I don't have the slightest interest in reading about "grief and moving on". I want to read about the real Voyager characters, the characters from the series.

Dark Gilligan wrote:

Voyager is the hero ship of the series, thus the name. No confusion. Characters come and go but the ship remains the same. It's that simple. If someone picks up a copy of Star Trek: Voyager with the expectation of it being Star Trek: Janeway, that's their own misconception. Just as Star Trek: Deep Space Nine is not about the ongoing adventures of Ben Sisko.

Oh, come on. What would the TOS fans said if Kirk, Spock and the other main characters were killed off and removed from the Kirk-era Enterprise and we would have some bogus crew with Captain Iggy Bundy or something like that in charge. No one would read those books.

Star Trek Voyager should be about the ship and its crew, the characters in the TV series.

That sould depend on how popular the TOS books set after Kirk's "death" were.

Also

Spoiler: The Chimes at Midnight

I didn't have a problem with the Chimes At Midnight being set in a universe where Spock died as a child and having Kirk die when the original Enterprise blew up.

 

[Lynx]

These new characters are far more than extras, substantially more interesting than Carey and Ayala. They were designed to have enough story to make them the equal of all the other important characters on the ship. Carey and Ayala weren't, they were designed to be bit players. You understand the distinction, yes?

And if so, how can you "find" them to be "nothing more than extras" when you haven't even read them?

Because they can never replace charcters like Kes, Janeway, Tuvok, Neelix etc. They can never be as good as them

I can understand "I loved Janeway, she was the reason I was interested, I don't want to read the books without her." That makes sense to me. As a TV show, it would've been pretty unlikely I would continue to watch TNG if Patrick Stewart had left the show, for instance. (Though I'd continue reading the books now if he left, because they've done a much better job of fleshing out the backing characters so they really have stories of their own.) Now, why would I have stopped watching? Because Riker would've had command, and I didn't like Riker very much.

Then you do see my point.

But your point of view seems different, to me. Chakotay, who you like, is now the one in command. Your problem isn't the same as mine. I knew what the show would look like without Picard, and I wasn't a fan. You have no idea what Voyager is like, with these new characters, but are convinced that you couldn't possibly like it, and I can't figure out how you could be that sure.

I know what it will look like and I don't like it. It will be a lot of grieving, references to Janeway's death and a possible C/7 too. Not what I want.

Every time a huge change in scope or story happens, like Janeway's death, in any of the series I read, my response is "whoa crap, that's ballsy, that could really screw up why I love these books, but I want to see if they pull it off and why they thought it was important!" And if they fail, as with Star Wars, then I stop. It's weird to me that you hear that there are new characters that most people seem to really love, a new direction that most people seem to really approve of (even those sad about Janeway's death), but you're convinced - knowing essentially nothing about that direction - that it, and all the characters, have to be inferior to the old ones.

First of all, "most people" seem to be those who post on this site who appreciate the current direction but I'm not sure if they are representative for all Voyager fans.

What makes the old ones so special? They came out of someone's brain, just like the new ones. And the new ones have the benefit of being written after the show/books have attained momentum and weight, so they can be written to fit in and provide interesting new perspectives. They should fit together better.

What makes the old ones so special? Well, they were simply great and I liked them from the start. The new ones will never be as good and they will always remind me of what the series have lost

EDIT: Hell, even the "bring Janeway back" site you link to from your personal webpage says "Full Circle is one of the best Trek books ever written". I realize you don't approve of the creative direction, but I feel like if you're this pissed off about it you should at least be a bit more aware of exactly what it is you're criticizing. (The website also mentions several other criticisms that were all addressed and resolved in Unworthy, btw.)

I don't have to agree 100% with everything which is written on a site I link to. Not as long as the common goal is the same.

If you want it in practical terms, writers are going to be much more willing to take feedback if you can explain why the new characters are not up to your standards. "They could never be good enough for me!" doesn't exactly mean much. If you can articulate exactly why Janeway mattered to you so much, and why that same sense is lacking in the new books, it would help your case. Hell, it would actually be a case, where right now you have nothing.

Right now, they know they've lost a sale with you, but even if they did read your 8,000 posts on the subject, they would know more about random rock band revivals than exactly what qualities were so important to you in the fiction.

I think that Janeway is one of the best Star Trek captains. It's a close call between her and Picard when it comes to favorites. I also find her a great character who it is possible to write a lot of good stories about. I also think that Janeway in many ways personified the whole series in the same way as Kirk and Spock personifies TOS and Enterprise. Could you imagine some ensign Nivok replacing Spock in a TOS story?

I also think that characters like Tuvok, Kes and Neelix belongs in the books for many different reasons. They are among the best characters ever in Star Trek, too good to be dumped and replaced.

No replacement characters can replace the great characters from the TV series. It would only be wrong.

And no, I haven't written 8000 posts about the subject.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

And if so, how can you "find" them to be "nothing more than extras" when you haven't even read them?

Because they can never replace characters like Kes, Janeway, Tuvok, Neelix etc. They can never be as good as them.

Bullshit.

No, I don't mince words.

I like Trapper John. I also like B.J. Hunnycut. I like Frank Burns. I also like Charles Emerson Winchester. It's not a betrayal of Trapper that I like B.J., nor is a betrayal of Frank Burns that I like Major Winchester. And, to be blunt, I always liked Colonel Potter more than I liked Henry Blake.

I liked Coach. I also liked Woody. It's not a betrayal of Coach's memory that I liked Woody.

Maybe, in your mind, Lynx, Voyager is different than M*A*S*H or Cheers. To be honest, Voyager is different in my mind; it's a vastly lesser series than M*A*S*H or Cheers. If better, more lasting, and more important series than Voyager can replace characters, can move on, why can't Voyager?

More importantly, why can't you?

 

[Dark Gilligan]

Oh, come on. What would the TOS fans said if Kirk, Spock and the other main characters were killed off and removed from the Kirk-era Enterprise and we would have some bogus crew with Captain Iggy Bundy or something like that in charge. No one would read those books.

Actually, people do read those books. A good number of stories have been set aboard the Enterprise after Kirk's death. I don't believe anyone was pleased that Kirk was killed off but we didn't turn out backs on Star Trek because of it, either.

 

[Steve Roby]

Real fans stopped watching M*A*S*H when they got rid of Spearchucker Jones. The show was just a bogus bastardization after that.

And Happy Days? When Chuck Cunningham was booted? That show was DEAD to me after that. DEAD.

(Allyn wins the thread. Might as well lock it up now.)

 

[David cgc]

Oh, come on. What would the TOS fans said if Kirk, Spock and the other main characters were killed off and removed from the Kirk-era Enterprise and we would have some bogus crew with Captain Iggy Bundy or something like that in charge. No one would read those books.

Yeah. The Captain would probably be some bald guy with a ridiculously inappropriate accent, too.

 

[Dayton Ward]

Real fans stopped watching M*A*S*H when they got rid of Spearchucker Jones. The show was just a bogus bastardization after that.

Real fans stopped reading after the original novel, and deny all rumors of any sequels or subsequent adaptations.

 

[kimc]

There's no Voyager books on the schedule for next year, so I imagine by the time the next one is commissioned the sales figures for the last two will have all come in. If we continue down this track then it must have worked, if it gets changed up then I imagine you're proved right.

I imagine "Full Circle" and "Unworthy" enjoyed some curiousity seekers drawn by the death of Janeway and Chakotay's dealing with it. It will be interesting to see if the next few books' sales fall or not.

 

[kimc]

Also

Spoiler: The Chimes at Midnight

I didn't have a problem with the Chimes At Midnight being set in a universe where Spock died as a child and having Kirk die when the original Enterprise blew up.

The thing is that's an alternate universe. An alternate universe to explore the death of Janeway would not be a bad thing either. Heck, that topic has been explored in a ton of fanfic already. It's having the Voyager story continue without favorite characters that's the main disappointment. I used to look forward to the days when I could walk into a bookstore and grab the latest Voyager book off the shelf. Those days seem to be gone for now though...

 

[Dark Gilligan]

It's having the Voyager story continue without favorite characters that's the main disappointment. I used to look forward to the days when I could walk into a bookstore and grab the latest Voyager book off the shelf. Those days seem to be gone for now though...

Kirk. Dead. The stories continued. Those days you talk about are gone only because you choose them to be.

 

[Thrawn]

Because they can never replace charcters like Kes, Janeway, Tuvok, Neelix etc. They can never be as good as them.

...

No replacement characters can replace the great characters from the TV series. It would only be wrong.

BUT... WHY?

You just keep saying this over and over, and you never explain WHY you think so.

WHAT makes those characters so good to you? What, exactly, are the new characters missing? Give examples, details, emotions... something.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

This type of thing would be a case by case basis, of course, but if Pocket is paying out $$$$ for a VOY license, they're hardly going to rebrand as the unknown "Delta Quadrant" and risk losing sales to VOY fans looking for VOY books.

Just so we're clear, Ian, when you said earlier that Pocket couldn't contractually rebrand Voyager novels as something else like, say, "Delta Quadrant," did you know what you were talking about, or were you just making stuff up again? Because it's pretty clear that you didn't know what you were talking about, because here you admit that Pocket can rebrand (because they've done it before), so that really leaves the "making stuff up again," right? I just want to make sure I'm clear. Thanks.

 

[AuntKate]

Come to think of it, I don't read TOS novels that don't have Kirk in them. I did read the Shatnerverse novels, though, at least the first few. And I don't read a book unless it is based on one of the TV series.

Yeah, I know I'm probably missing some good novels, noble characters, etc. I just want to read about the crews I've seen on TV and in the movies, tyvm.

 

[Sci]

Listen, no one is ever going to convince Lynx to like or give the VOY Relaunch a chance. And that's fine, because the things Lynx wants out of his VOY are fundamentally incompatible with the creative goals that the authors and editors set out for the Relaunch.

And that's just fine. We shouldn't badger him into liking something he doesn't want to like.

But, by the same token, Lynx shouldn't insult the creators and fans of works of art that he doesn't like.

 

[Therin of Andor]

were you just making stuff up again?

I'm not really sure why I'm bothering, but...

My sig clearly says it is my opinion, but I'm fairly sure when Pocket buys a license to create "Voyager" novels they are expected to at least keep the "Voyager" name on the cover. There are lawyers and red tape specialists who do this stuff for both sides of an agreement. Rebranding VOY books to drop the "Voyager" name wouldn't be as easy as the OP was suggesting; a VOY novel without Janeway and Tuvok doesn't warrant rebranding to warn people, because it's still based on VOY.

I have spoken to several local Paramount and CIC-Taft people, and numerous licensees, of Star Trek and Batman tie-ins, about this kind of stuff before. Not this question specifically, but licensing rules and expectations.

So yeah, as you have guessed, I'm full of shit and I always make this stuff up. So set me on Ignore now, 'cos I'll likely do it again.