Random Thought: Was Janeway Killed Because She was So Polarizing?

[kimc]

Come to think of it, I don't read TOS novels that don't have Kirk in them. I did read the Shatnerverse novels, though, at least the first few. And I don't read a book unless it is based on one of the TV series.

That's pretty much how I sit too. I consider myself a Kirk fan and if some other captain is in the center seat for a TOS novel then I'm not all that interested.

Nothing wrong with original characters. However, the number of books on my reading list already exceed what's possible for my lifetime. If there's a Treklit novel that does a good job featuring characters I already know and love then I'm willing to move that novel to the head of the list. Otherwise, I already have plenty to read.

I'm not clear on why there can't be both types of novels produced: ones that explore alternate universes (dead captains, etc) as well as those that keep the crews intact. The important factor in both types should be well-written character-driven stories - not who is dead or alive.

 

[Lynx]

Because they can never replace charcters like Kes, Janeway, Tuvok, Neelix etc. They can never be as good as them.

...

No replacement characters can replace the great characters from the TV series. It would only be wrong.

BUT... WHY?

You just keep saying this over and over, and you never explain WHY you think so.

WHAT makes those characters so good to you? What, exactly, are the new characters missing? Give examples, details, emotions... something.

Well, how can I explain my emotions in this case?

It's simply that I happen to like the Voyager characters, all of them, not only Kes and I can't imagine a "Voyager" series without any of them.

I remember when I watched "Caretaker" the first time. That episode knocked me out in a way. I took an immediate like to all main characters (which is someting I seldom do), OK I did have some problems with The Doctor to start with, I thought that a hologram as doctor was a bit over the top but it didn't take long before I really started to like him too. I also thought that the whole premise for the show was great and I really looked forward to each episode.

The first nail in the coffin was when Kes was kicked out, I'm not gonna go into details there, my opinion about that is well-known. The second nail was "Fury". "Endgame" and what happened there was a dissapointment too.

When the relaunch started, I did have some expectations for it. I did have a nice conversation with Christie Golden via e-mail around the time the "Dark Matters" books were published and I got the impression that she really liked and cared for the characters. So I was hoping that some of the worst stupidities from the later seasons should be corrected in the relaunch and that we could look forward to exciting adventures for the old favorites.

However, I wasn't too happy with the early relaunch books but I could accept it as the ongoing Voyager story, I remember some debates about "canon" where I stated that I considered the different relaunch books as "canon". Oh dear, what I fool I was!

Because then came the final nail in the coffin, which is the current direction of the relaunch.

To tie it up, its two-thirds about affection for a bunch of great characters and one-third being p***edd off by what I see as unnecessary character destruction.

I just happen to think that the Voyager characters are great and I can't or won't see them being killed off, ruined or replaced.

Aunt Kate wrote:

Come to think of it, I don't read TOS novels that don't have Kirk in them. I did read the Shatnerverse novels, though, at least the first few. And I don't read a book unless it is based on one of the TV series.

Yeah, I know I'm probably missing some good novels, noble characters, etc. I just want to read about the crews I've seen on TV and in the movies, tyvm.

I can agree here. Note also that when it comes to Kirk, there are still books written about him when he's in charge of Enterprise and it's also a rather long period of years in which it's possible to cram in stories about Kirk. How many are there for Janeway? 9 years? And for Kes? Three!

Sci wrote:

Listen, no one is ever going to convince Lynx to like or give the VOY Relaunch a chance. And that's fine, because the things Lynx wants out of his VOY are fundamentally incompatible with the creative goals that the authors and editors set out for the Relaunch.

And that's just fine. We shouldn't badger him into liking something he doesn't want to like.

But, by the same token, Lynx shouldn't insult the creators and fans of works of art that he doesn't like.

Correct.

It's not often I change my mind when I've made up my mind about something.

On the other hand, you're right about not insulting creators and fans of something I like and I will try not to do so. But I get aggressive when I'm angry and annoyed and most of all I get aggressive when I see no way out of a situation.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'm not clear on why there can't be both types of novels produced

There are both types produced. There will be more novels with an alive Janeway (such as "String Theory"), but why should every novel with a death in it be shunted into an alternate universe? Because then you nullify every dangerous situation in every "main universe" novel. You're asking for every book to have a "happy ending".

When the 24th century shows were no longer being produced, Pocket responded to fans' positive responses to those ST stories that were more interconnected, so we got more - but now people who prefer standalones are angry.

Pocket responded to requests that the stories "have some balls" to do more than temporarily threaten the lives of characters, but now other fans are angry.

If all deaths must be relegated to a separate universe, other sectors of the readership will be angry.

Pocket will never be able to please everyone. So they simply get on with trying to produce books with compelling stories, that fit with canon, and will likely sell better than the proposals that never make it to full manuscript.

But gosh, it sounds like I'm making stuff up again.

 

[LightningStorm]

... but why should every novel with a death in it be shunted into an alternate universe? Because then you nullify every dangerous situation in every "main universe" novel. ...

Well, yes, and no. To me, a story isn't about the ultimate outcome. So it's not about whether or not a person (say Janeway) actually dies at the end or whether she gets out of a perilous situation unharmed. For me it's about how all of that comes about. So I don't think that a person who wants Janeway to ALWAYS live is necessarily nullifying dangerous situations - it's more in how you look at it and what you want out of it. Because for me even if Janeway lives through every life-threatening situation an author put her in it's not about the fact that she lived or died but how she (or the other characters or circumstances) worked together and got out of it. Or in the case of a death how they didn't work and she died.

So, in order to be clear (in what is already a convoluted discussion): Yes, I do disagree with the decision to kill off Janeway, however I don't have a problem with the direction of the VOY books and her presence or lack there of isn't going to affect my ability to enjoy them. However far and away my biggest problem with Janeway's death was that the book in which she died was a terrible book. Had Janeway died in a good engaging interesting book I'd have liked it much more. Again, it's not about the death (FOR ME), but it's about how she got there.

Hell, I don't consider myself spoiled if someone accidentally drops the bomb about a character's death that occurs at the end of a story I haven't read, because I don't care overmuch about that. I do consider myself spoiled if someone dropped plot details about how that death came to pass though.

 

[Therin of Andor]

To me, a story isn't about the ultimate outcome.

Same here, but for the first 30 years of ST fiction, a common complaint from some fans was that they didn't read licensed ST fiction because nothing permanent was allowed to happen in them.

my biggest problem with Janeway's death was that the book in which she died was a terrible book.

But that's your personal opinion that the book was "terrible". As a Peter David fan, I had a wonderful time reading "Before Dishonor". I had quibbles that it seemed there was either no time, or no inclination, on the part of the editor, to make sure that Peter David's interpretation of several continuing new characters was accurate, but as an example of PAD ST, it was quite typical.

Some fans complain that Peter David's stuff is self-indulgent, and that it seems it could have had tighter editing. Maybe that's just the way he works. Maybe he's impossible to try to edit? I dunno. But I like his style. It comes through in his non fiction writings, too. ("But I Digress..." and "More Digressions". Hilarious, thoughtful stuff.)

 

[kimc]

There are both types produced. There will be more novels with an alive Janeway (such as "String Theory"), but why should every novel with a death in it be shunted into an alternate universe? Because then you nullify every dangerous situation in every "main universe" novel. You're asking for every book to have a "happy ending".

I don't recall saying I want every book to have a happy ending. I would just like to read future books with Janeway as the main character. A continuation of the J/C Beyer set up would be great too. We're not talking rocket science here...

 

[Dayton Ward]

There's nothing to preclude future stories set during the series, or even earlier in the post-series timeframe before those chronicled in the latest novels. No one's ever said that would "never happen." It is and has always been the same for the other "relaunch" series, as well. Voyager's really just getting up a head of steam again, but one never knows what the future holds.

 

[kimc]

There's nothing to preclude future stories set during the series, or even earlier in the post-series timeframe before those chronicled in the latest novels. No one's ever said that would "never happen." It is and has always been the same for the other "relaunch" series, as well. Voyager's really just getting up a head of steam again, but one never knows what the future holds.

True but then the characters aren't really moving forward if they're still back "in the series timeframe". Not interested.

 

[AuntKate]

There's nothing to preclude future stories set during the series, or even earlier in the post-series timeframe before those chronicled in the latest novels. No one's ever said that would "never happen." It is and has always been the same for the other "relaunch" series, as well. Voyager's really just getting up a head of steam again, but one never knows what the future holds.

One of my concerns about this "there can be other novels" suggestion is the dreadful paucity of Voyager books over the years. Beyer has said that she not been asked to write a continuation novel in this relaunch, and I see no Voyager novels in the "updates" of upcoming novels for the next two years. Voyager fans will apparently have a long wait before this story line continued (with a Janeway resurrection or not), but my hopes are dim for any new novels set in the seven-year DQ period, ever. The precedent just isn't there.

 

[Thrawn]

The precedent isn't there? How about String Theory - a big, epic trilogy set within the run of the series, which is something that only TOS has also gotten, and none of the other shows in relaunch-territory?

 

[Thrawn]

Also, the only series not at all on the schedule next year (if you include January '11, which publishers do) are Enterprise, Voyager, and Vanguard, and all three got either a double-size book or two books this year. There just aren't that many slots overall, anymore, and things do tend to balance out in the long run.

We'll get a Voyager book in '11, not to worry. And if they're getting Beyer to write it, she still wouldn't be contracted until January/February at the earliest, possibly later with the editorial musical chairs going on right now.

 

[Dayton Ward]

True but then the characters aren't really moving forward if they're still back "in the series timeframe". Not interested.

And yet, you say upthread that you only read TOS novels with Kirk in the center seat, presumably accepting that there will be no real moving forward for his character.

Here, let me help you with that goalpost.

As for the publication schedule, what's in the pipeline is usually more involved than what's been publicly announced. I honestly have no idea what's up with VGR (or anything else with which I have no direct involvement, for that matter), but I can't believe there aren't some kind of plans for it somewhere. The way things are planned out so far in advance, it just doesn't seem likely that there hasn't been some kind of discussion on the topic. No doubt there's been some shakeups to any longterm plans thanks to the latest round of editorial shifts, but if the series is making money, they'll keep pushing forward with it. I've heard nothing official so far as FC and Unworthy are concerned, but I was under the impression that FC at least was doing quite well, sales-wise.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Beyer has said that she not been asked to write a continuation novel in this relaunch, and I see no Voyager novels in the "updates" of upcoming novels for the next two years.

However, you don't mention why this is so. Beyer has said that Marco Palmieri's vision for post-Golden Voyager was for a multi-author series, like Titan or Deep Space Nine, which would indicate that, at least in his original scheme, she wouldn't have been writing the next novel anyway. Margaret Clark may have had plans for the post-Unworthy novel that didn't involve Beyer, and we don't know what Margaret's successor's plans are. (Or even who Margaret's successor is, for that matter.)

Voyager fans will apparently have a long wait before this story line continued (with a Janeway resurrection or not), but my hopes are dim for any new novels set in the seven-year DQ period, ever. The precedent just isn't there.

Not knowing who the successor to Margaret Clark is, and what that person's plans and vision for Star Trek entail, makes it impossible to speculate on what may happen with Voyager. Past precedent doesn't exactly apply in this instance, as the players behind the scenes are both different and unknown.

 

[AuntKate]

The precedent isn't there? How about String Theory - a big, epic trilogy set within the run of the series, which is something that only TOS has also gotten, and none of the other shows in relaunch-territory?

String Theory and Distant Shores came out in 2005, over four years ago. Golden's relaunch in 2003-2004. Five years later (with nothing in the meantime) comes Beyer's continuation of the relaunch. The String Theory trilogy was big, but I'm not sure epic applies--the last novel was almost impossible to read and enjoy.

And you just put another nail in the coffin when you say that none of the other series has had any novels set during their series now that they are in relaunch. Why would I even hope for that to happen with Voyager? Where's the precedent?

 

[Thrawn]

^ I think you've had it explained to you before that this wasn't because of neglect, but because it took them a while to figure out what the next direction of Voyager was going to be. Full Circle began being worked on as soon as String Theory was published. They didn't stop doing Voyager on purpose.

And, if you're counting correctly, String Theory: Evolution came out in early '06, meaning it was just over 3 years. And a fairly substantial part of that delay was that, after Destiny was commissioned, they had to re-do the Voyager story to match with Destiny, and then delay the book until after Destiny was published. Which was done to use Destiny to push the popularity of the coming Voyager stories.

Even back when DS9 ended, when they were still doing 2 MMPBs a month and the publishing schedule moved a lot faster, it took 2 years to get the DS9 relaunch off the ground. And Full Circle was substantially longer than both Avatar books put together.

 

[AuntKate]

I guess that depends on your definition of "neglected." Perhaps the editors writers were grappling with the continuation of Golden's relaunch, so they weren't neglecting VOY. However, as a reader wanting to buy and read Voyager novels, I felt that the VOY series was, indeed, neglected. I still do. I see lots of TNG and DS9 novels being cranked out, and I don't see many VOY books by comparison.

 

[Dayton Ward]

And you just put another nail in the coffin when you say that none of the other series has had any novels set during their series now that they are in relaunch. Why would I even hope for that to happen with Voyager? Where's the precedent?

Not novels, but TNG had the 20th anniversary anthology, and the A Time to... books were set between two of the movies. However, that latter example actually served as a springboard toward post-film TNG stories. DS9 had Hollow Men set during the show, and even Terok Nor set prior to the show. Voyager just hasn't had a shot, yet.

Yes, they don't publish such books side-by-side or in alternating fashion with post-series titles, but those eras haven't been forgotten. The editors at the time had their preferred direction(s) for each series, and now that new folks are running things, they'll likely bring their own ideas and preferences to bear. No way to know what they have in mind yet, though.

 

[Thrawn]

Ok, then, let's look at the numbers. From 2005-2009 (the last 5 years):

TOS: 22%
TNG: 8%
DS9: 14% (if you include Terok Nor), 10% (if not)
VOY: 7%
ENT: 6%
NF: 2%
SCE: 6%
Gorkon: 2%
Titan: 7%
Vanguard: 6%
Lost Era: 4% (if you put Terok Nor here), 0% (if not)
Mirror Universe: 6%
Abramsverse: 1%
Crossover/other: 10%

And that's the time period that included the 3-year delay. Oh, and for the record, the DS9 numbers include the omnibus reprints, and TOS includes Excelsior, Shatnerverse, etc. So even those aren't as much bigger than Voyager as they look. If you take out the reprints, DS9 is at 8%, tied exactly with TNG and one book above VOY.

SO UNFAIR.

 

[AuntKate]

Percentages and statistics don't always tell the tale, do they? Let's just look at TNG, DS9, and VOY, shall we?

TNG since 2001--35 books (I'm putting the Destiny trilogy here). DS9 since 2001--26 books. VOY since 2001--13 books.

Of those 74 books, TNG is 47%, DS9 is 35%, and VOY is 17%.

I think unfair fits.

 

[Thrawn]

Fair enough, but then you're blaming Voyager neglect on the previous editor, John Ordover. I started counting from the moment he left, and since then, Voyager's been just about even with the rest of them, even with the 3 year delay you're so mad about.

And as far as Destiny goes, counting it as just TNG is a little disingenuous. If you really don't want it in crossovers, you could count it as 1 TNG, 1 Titan, and 1 Aventine, maybe, to get the proportions right. Which still doesn't put TNG very far ahead of VOY, especially since Voyager appeared in Destiny too, albeit not as much as the main 4 captains/crews.

And while we're at it, keep in mind that Full Circle is essentially two novels published as one (it was commissioned as two, and only combined to better reap the interest coming off of Destiny), and Fearful Symmetry/Soul Key is essentially one novel published as two. So on content, you could say VOY is actually up on DS9 by a book.

All in how you look at it, I guess. If you're determined that Voyager was treated unfairly, you can probably find unfair treatment. You see what you want to see.