Random Thought: Was Janeway Killed Because She was So Polarizing?

[Thrawn]

None of that constitutes evidence that all the Pocket editors cared about was profitability. It constitutes evidence that most VOY fans do not share your opinion of the death of Janeway.

Plus, this all misses the point anyway. If the creators were "selling out" and just caring about pleasing the fans as much as possible, then there's no WAY they'd have killed off Janeway.

The fact that they did proves that they don't "just care about money", but in fact believe that they get money by creating the best product possible, and are willing to take chances - sometimes huge, divisive chances - to do so.

 

[Sci]

Profit, profit, profit! Is that all which counts in this crazy world. No surprise that we have starvation, wars, enviromental destruction and all that when all is about profit.

Riiiiiiiiiight. Killing Janeway = war, starvation, and environmental destruction. Completely reasonable conclusion.

Not sure he was actually making that link Sci, just that because in his view point the world does revolve around the profit margins of the massive multinationals so much that starvation and war, aswell as the damage caused to the environment are still happening and I have to begrudgingly agree with him on that point.

It's fair enough to say that starvation, war, and environmental damage stem from amoral multinationals that only care about profitability and have no regard for the moral consequences of their actions.

But to argue that the decision to kill Janeway is itself motivated by an amoral desire for profitability with no regard for the moral consequences of killing a fictional character? It's absolutely unreasonable.

None of that constitutes evidence that all the Pocket editors cared about was profitability. It constitutes evidence that most VOY fans do not share your opinion of the death of Janeway.

Plus, this all misses the point anyway. If the creators were "selling out" and just caring about pleasing the fans as much as possible, then there's no WAY they'd have killed off Janeway.

The fact that they did proves that they don't "just care about money", but in fact believe that they get money by creating the best product possible, and are willing to take chances - sometimes huge, divisive chances - to do so.

Quoted for truth. Someone who only cares about profitability would never produce a story that could actually anger people.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

He/She (I'm sorry, DG, your profile lacks a gender indicator).

Yikes! I thought the goatee gave it away. Not that I haven't seen some hairy women in my day...

 

[Lynx]

But in so many words that's saying Janeway fans are owed Janeway books. Going back to sales and the Locus numbers, don't books without Janeway in them sell better than books with her? It's all about product and profitability.

Profit, profit, profit! Is that all which counts in this crazy world. No surprise that we have starvation, wars, enviromental destruction and all that when all is about profit.

Riiiiiiiiiight. Killing Janeway = war, starvation, and environmental destruction. Completely reasonable conclusion.

It also confirms my theory that the only thing those in charge of "official Star Trek" cares about is money.

Then you fail logic forever.

First off, Dark Gilligan is not "the people in charge of official Star Trek." So you can't take something Dark Gilligan says as in any way being evidence of the motives of former Pocket Books editors Margaret Clark and Marco Palmieri (who made the decision to have Janeway die in Before Dishonor and to continue the VOY series without her, respectively, and who are no longer at Pocket due to recession-related layoffs).

Secondly, Dark Gilligan did not cite profitability as a primary motivator in having Janeway killed off. He/She (I'm sorry, DG, your profile lacks a gender indicator) merely cited the profitability of post-Janeway novels as evidence that the majority of VOY fans are not sufficiently angered by the death of Janeway for Pocket Books to need to revive Janeway to keep the VOY book series alive.

None of that constitutes evidence that all the Pocket editors cared about was profitability. It constitutes evidence that most VOY fans do not share your opinion of the death of Janeway.

My comment wasn't aimed at DarkGilligan but at his comment about "it's all about product and profitability" which do confirm my theory hat they killed off janeway to get an effect which might increase the selling of the books which would lead to a temporary rise in income for the company. In other words, they didn't care about what the Janeway fans would think, it was all about that increase of sold books and the profit which would be the result.

As for "most Voyager fans do not share my opinon of the death of Janeway", it's not the exact truth since many of those who had bought and read the books are strongly against the death of the character but wanted to read the books to get an opinion about them. Not to mention that some non-Voyager, non-Janeway fans might have bought the books as well for different reasons.

 

[Lynx]

Profit, profit, profit! Is that all which counts in this crazy world. No surprise that we have starvation, wars, enviromental destruction and all that when all is about profit.

Riiiiiiiiiight. Killing Janeway = war, starvation, and environmental destruction. Completely reasonable conclusion.

Not sure he was actually making that link Sci, just that because in his view point the world does revolve around the profit margins of the massive multinationals so much that starvation and war, aswell as the damage caused to the environment are still happening and I have to begrudgingly agree with him on that point.

Just what I was referring to. Everything is about making profit. No love, no compassion, no one cares for anything, it's all about making money. If someone is insulted, sad or hurt by the actions, who cares as long as there's more money to earn, more money in the wallets and more money and wealth to the "people in suits" all over the world.

 

[Thrawn]

Lynx, I swear, reading your posts is like being in a twilight zone episode. Like you're an alien or something, and we're both looking at the same thing, and seeing something totally different. Like there's a box in front of me, and it's solid green, and you're like "who painted rainbows on the rubber ball?!"

You speak of some sort of "effect" that the editors wanted to create to make better Voyager novel sales. This "effect" they were going for was... a good story! That's it. Some people like drama and surprise in their stories, even main character death, hard as it apparently is for you to believe.

You STILL refuse to EVER admit that people might like Janeway's death because it makes a good story in their opinion, or that the writers/editors might have written it for the same reason. Despite the fact that so many people are clearly enjoying the novels, despite being Janeway fans, Voyager fans, and having no idea who Kirsten Beyer is. Despite the fact that Marco and Margaret (and Kirsten, too) have all publicly explained their reasons for these choices, and they all say exactly what I did - that they thought it made for a better story.

I don't know how else to say it.

"It's a good story in my opinion." "YOU MUST HATE JANEWAY!"
"It's a good story in my opinion." "IT'S JUST A STRANGE DARK MAGIC EFFECT TO BOOST SALES THROUGH STRANGE DARK MAGIC!"
"It's a good story in my opinion." "BUT YOU CAN'T BE A REAL FAN!"
"It's a good story in my opinion." "THE RUBBER BALL HAS RAINBOWS!"

 

[Fer]

I'm not trying to be a smart-alec here, I'm asking in all seriousness... you mean that because Janeway was killed in a book published by Pocket Books, that you'd feel sad reading any Voyager story published by Pocket Books? Even if it's set during the series?

I did say it was probably just me. I tend to be that way about characters I like in stories, changes my view of the stories I've already read too. It's an annoying habit I don't seem to be able to break.

So if I get what you're saying, it's like, just the fact that it's been done means it stays in the back of your head any time you see the character again, right?

Okay, I can understand that. If that's the way you feelings react, then that's just the way it is.

If so, I don't really understand. It's not like any of these books are canon, and it's not like the book would reference Janeway being killed. How would it be any different from reading a fanfic set during the series?

If I've misunderstood, please clarify that for me. Thank you.

They may not be canon but it's highly doubtful there will ever be any more canon episodes.

Well, my point with the canon thing was it's not like Janeway has officially been killed off (like Kirk was, as Hartzilla2007 so humorously pointed out). As far as Paramount is concerned, they can still use her in STXII if they wanted to. Or say if IDW wants to do a Voyager comic, they could decide to do a post-series Voyager comic and take it in a completely different direction (assuming Paramount let them). So she's really only "dead" as far as the specific books that say she is.

I tend to look at things like that as alternate timelines. So just think, there are plenty of timelines out there where Janeway didn't die!

(Just my pov, of course.)

 

[Sci]

Then you fail logic forever.

First off, Dark Gilligan is not "the people in charge of official Star Trek." So you can't take something Dark Gilligan says as in any way being evidence of the motives of former Pocket Books editors Margaret Clark and Marco Palmieri (who made the decision to have Janeway die in Before Dishonor and to continue the VOY series without her, respectively, and who are no longer at Pocket due to recession-related layoffs).

Secondly, Dark Gilligan did not cite profitability as a primary motivator in having Janeway killed off. He/She (I'm sorry, DG, your profile lacks a gender indicator) merely cited the profitability of post-Janeway novels as evidence that the majority of VOY fans are not sufficiently angered by the death of Janeway for Pocket Books to need to revive Janeway to keep the VOY book series alive.

None of that constitutes evidence that all the Pocket editors cared about was profitability. It constitutes evidence that most VOY fans do not share your opinion of the death of Janeway.

My comment wasn't aimed at DarkGilligan but at his comment about "it's all about product and profitability" which do confirm my theory hat they killed off janeway to get an effect which might increase the selling of the books which would lead to a temporary rise in income for the company.

Once again, you fail logic forever. Dark Gilligant is not an editor or writer at Pocket Books. The fact that he says something is not evidence of what the motivations of the authors and editors of Pocket Books were. You are conflating one person's beliefs with those of completely different people.

Secondly, yes, of course there is a profit motive. There has always been a profit motive in every episode, film, and novel of Star Trek ever produced. This does not mean that profit was the only motive, or that the people who made Star Trek cared about profit above all other considerations.

As Thrawn has said, the "effect" they wanted to create was the telling of a good story. You didn't enjoy that story; that's fine. That doesn't mean that other people didn't enjoy that story, and that doesn't mean that their only reason for making the story they made was amoral profiteering.

As for "most Voyager fans do not share my opinon of the death of Janeway", it's not the exact truth

Actually, it is.

since many of those who had bought and read the books are strongly against the death of the character but wanted to read the books to get an opinion about them.

You don't know how many that is. Especially since we here at TrekBBS have seen a grand total of, what, maybe 15 or 20 people out of the thousands who buy Trek novels who objected to the decision to kill Janeway.

Most people simply do not buy a book with the intention of hating it.

Riiiiiiiiiight. Killing Janeway = war, starvation, and environmental destruction. Completely reasonable conclusion.

Not sure he was actually making that link Sci, just that because in his view point the world does revolve around the profit margins of the massive multinationals so much that starvation and war, aswell as the damage caused to the environment are still happening and I have to begrudgingly agree with him on that point.

Just what I was referring to. Everything is about making profit. No love, no compassion, no one cares for anything, it's all about making money.

And it's an outrageous conclusion to decide that because the editors and authors at Pocket had a different idea of how to tell a good story than you, that they must therefore have no love, no compassion, no care for anything other than money.

 

[Fer]

Lynx... I think I'm just going to have to agree to disagree. I respect that you feel that killing Janeway was just done to boost sales and profits without consideration for the Janeway fans, even though I disagree. I hope you can also respect that I feel that killing Janeway was done to create new drama and take the story in a new direction and excite the fans, even though you disagree.

 

[Kataaran]

So if I get what you're saying, it's like, just the fact that it's been done means it stays in the back of your head any time you see the character again, right?

Okay, I can understand that. If that's the way you feelings react, then that's just the way it is.

Yep, that's it exactly.

 

[AuntKate]

^ Such as for example Places Of Exile, which in my opinion contains several of Janeway's finest moments in Treklit, which was published after Before Dishonor, or the first half of Full Circle, which again contains several of Janeway's finest moments in Treklit.

I think we've gotten more of Janeway since Janeway's death, proportionally, than we've gotten of Data since his.

If "Places of Exile" is the finest Janeway we can hope for in Treklit, than all I can say is, "Nuts."

I very much disliked the Janeway in "Places of Exile" because she exhibited all of the stereotypes that the current writers have decided "define" her (note that I can't speak for the Beyer Janeway, since I haven't read her novels). I truly wonder if these stereotypes are based on an unfamiliarity with her character (do writers rewatch episodes of Voyager before writing a story?), or perhaps a bias toward her character that have resulted in a cold, focused, solitary, and unemotional creature who bears little resemblance to the woman I saw on the screen for seven years.

The Janeway in "Places of Exile" continued to be so fixated on getting home (even after Voyager was destroyed) that she ignored the needs of her crew and basically separated herself from everyone as she pursued her "new" career. If you have watched the show at all, you know that Janeway would never do that. She would never have let B'Elanna get into the state she was in after Tom's death, would never have let the crew splinter and scatter the way they did. She would have been more like a good shepherd and encouraged them to stay together, keep in touch, form some sort of community. The precedent for that is in "Year of Hell," where she admonished the crew to find each other, if at all possible, when they were finally forced to abandon the ship. Another precedent for her concern over the crew is in "Night," where she agonizes over how her decisions have affected her crew. The PB writers seem to overlook these qualities when they write Voyager novels in favor of a simpler, less complex fixation on the AQ.

The narrow focus on her "let's get home" obsession might be what resulted in the belief that Janeway's "story has been told," as it was purported that the editors said when Janeway was "targeted" for death. All that comment tells me is that the editors have reduced Janeway to a character with a single focus at the expense of her other interesting and inspiring qualities. I hope that if/when she returns to the novels, the writers take some time to review the seven years of episodes and watch the character without any preconceived notions about what Janeway is like (and without a gleeful search for her "inconsistencies"). I think she deserves better treatment than the current stable of writers have given her in recent years.

So, Thrawn, I guess I'll just have to disagree with your assessment of Janeway's characterization in "Places of Exile." To me, that story is just another example of the failure to portray Janeway as a well-rounded captain and dedicated, even compassionate leader.

 

[captcalhoun]

"they're a good crew, I've got to get them home"

Kathryn Janeway.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Still? I only joined yesterday.

Exactly.

They may not be canon but it's highly doubtful there will ever be any more canon episodes.

So if you read about Janeway's death in a licensed novel, which is not canon, you'd be so sad you could never read another VOY book, set in any time period, ever - but if you read a fanfic with a Janeway death you could keep reading VOY fanfics successfully?

I repeat: why are you still here?

do writers rewatch episodes of Voyager before writing a story?

Surely you know Christopher well enough by now not to toss that one out.

Every one of us takes our own interpretation of characters from what we see in a show. That's why people end up with different favourite characters. All of the novels are the individual interpretations of each author. Hence his interpretation of Janeway and how she would act in a given situation, is likely to be different to yours. I seem to recall several episodes where Janeway acted differently to how you reckon she "would" have acted.

If anything, there seems to be a common complaint that canonical Janeway's character often acted differently to expectations, depending on who was writing the script. Hence "String Theory" Book 3. IIRC.

 

[Kataaran]

So if you read about Janeway's death in a licensed novel, which is not canon, you'd be so sad you could never read another VOY book, set in any time period, ever - but if you read a fanfic with a Janeway death you could keep reading VOY fanfics successfully?

I repeat: why are you still here?

OK, I'm not reading post Nemesis stuff because it's become too grim. I'll read the earlier stuff but henceforth there will always be the knowledge of what's round the corner.

When did I mention fanfic? I've never read any.

And I'm here because the title of the thread seems to indicate a discussion about one of my favourite characters.

 

[kimc]

The narrow focus on her "let's get home" obsession might be what resulted in the belief that Janeway's "story has been told," as it was purported that the editors said when Janeway was "targeted" for death. All that comment tells me is that the editors have reduced Janeway to a character with a single focus at the expense of her other interesting and inspiring qualities. I hope that if/when she returns to the novels, the writers take some time to review the seven years of episodes and watch the character without any preconceived notions about what Janeway is like (and without a gleeful search for her "inconsistencies"). I think she deserves better treatment than the current stable of writers have given her in recent years.

I agree with AuntKate. No, this is not a recording...

 

[Therin of Andor]

When did I mention fanfic? I've never read any.

So.... you won't be reading any more VOY novels, because Janeway's death makes you sad. Pre-death stories because you know what's coming, and post-death stories because she's already dead.

What's left to read? Why would you want to come to a TrekLit bbs if you're done with TrekLit? It seems masochistic.

And I'm here because the title of the thread seems to indicate a discussion about one of my favourite characters.

Okay.

 

[Kataaran]

So.... you won't be reading any more VOY novels, because Janeway's death makes you sad. Pre-death stories because you know what's coming, and post-death stories because she's already dead.

What's left to read? Why would you want to come to a TrekLit bbs if you're done with TrekLit? It seems masochistic.

Ah, no I didn't say I wouldn't read in-series stuff, just that the foreknowledge will affect how much I enjoy them.

As for the later stuff I'm pulling a 'bury head in sand' maneuver.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Ah, no I didn't say I wouldn't read in-series stuff, just that the foreknowledge will affect how much I enjoy them.

"I'm never going to be able to read those new books without feeling sad about the ultimate outcome"

and

"For me I read Trek because it was ultimately uplifting. It has ceased to be so for me"

sounds like someone who's already walked away, and yet you've just arrived.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

I think she deserves better treatment than the current stable of writers have given her in recent years.

Wow, you've painted that statement with quite a broad brush. I think if you read Full Circle you'll find that Kirsten has treated Kathryn Janeway with an extraordinary amount of compassion and respect. Much more so than a good number of episodes did on television.

 

[Kataaran]

"I'm never going to be able to read those new books without feeling sad about the ultimate outcome"

Where does it say I'm NOT going to read the older stuff? I'm just saying that for me personally the later knowledge will affect how I view them now.

"For me I read Trek because it was ultimately uplifting. It has ceased to be so for me"

sounds like someone who's already walked away, and yet you've just arrived.

I'm referring to the post Nemesis books there.

Not sure how I can make it clearer than this: I'll continue to read stuff that takes place within series. I'm not reading post Nemesis because I personally don't like the direction the books have gone in.