Random Thought: Was Janeway Killed Because She was So Polarizing?

[Lynx]

If that's true, why would Lynx even talk about any of the episodes post-Kes let alone the relaunch continuity? This is not meant to suggest anything. I am just curious about the motivation.

because Lynx is a [redacted to prevent ANOTHER warning]

seriously, do a search for 'janeway dead' or 'death' and read the posts that resulted.

to say they were .... divisive and featured much hysterical chest-beating would be an understatement.

edit, here: http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=78707

and here: http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=81388

Hmmmm.....that comment wasn't..............nice, to say the least.

But thanks for providing the links to the old threads. They are actually a bit interesting, most of all the personal attacks in some posts.

it's my sincere wish that we can keep this thread free from personal attacks and insults and have a cordial and constructive debate instead.

Thank you.

 

[Thrawn]

^ You still fail to acknowledge in even the slightest degree that someone might enjoy reading the new books because they think they tell a good story. A novel isn't a rock band. Rock bands are supposed to play the same songs every night. Books are supposed to explore new territory and push things forward. The point of a band is to be predictable. The point of a story is to be unpredictable.

I don't buy the book because it's by Kirsten Beyer, OR because I hate Janeway (which I don't), OR because it says Star Trek on the cover (which is not sufficient), OR because I'm deeply in love with one of the other characters. I buy the books because I like the story. It makes me think and feel, it surprises and challenges me. And until you acknowledge that that is a valid opinion, instead of assuming everyone that disagrees with you has some kind of ulterior motive, a constructive debate is a factual impossibility.

But you weren't willing to do it 6 months ago or a year ago, so I don't doubt you won't this time either.

 

[Sci]

Thrawn--the difference between modern Treklit and the old kind, back in the days of the numbered novel, was that if you didn't like one author's continuity, you could jump into another one entirely. ESPECIALLY with the TOS novels this was true. These days, if the continuity veers a direction you don't like, the extreme interconnectedness means it's hard to find pieces that aren't touched by the things that you didn't like.

Why, because random person X mentions random friend Y serving aboard novel-original Starship Z? I'm sorry, but you're vastly over-stating the interconnectedness of the Literary Trekverse. I'm not a fan of, for instance, the Stargazer or Corps of Engineers series, but the TrekLitVerse is not so interconnected that every minor mention of a minor element from SGZ or COE actually matters.

Brit may well have a point: perhaps sales ARE dropping because of this decision to connect EVERYTHING.

I had no idea Pocket Books shared its sales figures with you!

 

[AuntKate]

most of all the J/C-ers and the die-hard Janeway fans will turn their backs on the dead project and read and write fanfiction instead.

Hehehehehe. As several of them have told us on numerous occasions, they never read the novels in the first place, preferring to download free fanfic instead.

Not only is this untrue, it's unfair. Most of us buy the novels AND download the fanfic. Many of us are Star Trek fans from the earliest days of the series.

I started buying Star Trek books in 1973. I have a nice collection of TOS books from that era, most no longer in print. I bought all of the TNG numbered books and the crossovers that were done in the 90s. The last TNG book I bought was "Death in Winter." I bought all ten of the "Strange New Worlds" anthologies. I also have several hard copy fanfic anthologies that I bought at conventions back in the day. Imagine that.

However, I am mostly a Voyager fan today. I have all of the numbered Voyager novels and everything else that was published with Voyager on the cover ("Mosaic" and "Pathways," the academy books, "The Hologram's Handbook," the Captain Proton book, etc.). I bought all four of Golden's relaunch series, the String Theory trilogy, the "Mirror Universe" anthologies, and the "Myriad Universe" anthologies. I also have all of the non-fiction books that have been published over the years: "A Vision of the Future," "The Star Trek Voyager Companion," well, you get the point.

I have a shelf double-deep in my study with Star Trek books from the last thirty years, and I have several boxes of Star Trek books in the basement of my house that I no longer have room to display. I have been a loyal reader for most of my adult life, and I frankly resent the fact that the people who are upset about Janeway's "death" are routinely categorized as people who "never read the novels in the first place."

I not only read them, I spent my hard-earned money on them. Or I did. I have not purchased either of Beyer's novels, and I really don't care if they are good reads or not.

I am unhappy to have my captain and crew treated as they have been over the last several years by the editorial staff at Pocket Books. For years, they were ignored; when they returned, their captain was killed and the crew scattered. Of course, I am upset with the way the "relaunch" has developed and think it is a slap in the face to those of us who like Voyager just the way she was, thank you very much. I am expressing my dismay the only way I know how--by spending my money elsewhere. Oh, and I guess by venting here once in awhile.

As for fanfic, I am just grateful that there is some pretty good fanfic out there to make up the difference.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

The Voyager relaunch died with Janeway. What we will have now is a bogus ship with a bogus crew.

Let's take a simple look at that. Of the original VOY characters Chakotay, Paris, Kim, Torres, Seven, the Doctor, Vorik, Neelix, and Voyager herself are present and accounted for in Unworthy. Gone but not forgotten are Janeway, Kes, and Tuvok; two have passed on and one has been serving aboard another ship for several years now.

9 out of 12 is amazingly good. Also factor in the setting: the Delta Quadrant has returned as well.

So how exactly do you figure this is a bogus ship and bogus crew?

 

[Thestral]

The Voyager relaunch died with Janeway. What we will have now is a bogus ship with a bogus crew.

Let's take a simple look at that. Of the original VOY characters Chakotay, Paris, Kim, Torres, Seven, the Doctor, Vorik, and Voyager herself are present and accounted for in Unworthy. Gone but not forgotten are Janeway, Kes, and Tuvok; two have passed on and one has been assigned to another ship for several years now.

8 out of 11 is amazingly good. Also factor in the setting: the Delta Quadrant has returned as well.

So how exactly do you figure this is a bogus ship and bogus crew?

And let's compare that with Deep Space Nine.

Of the nine original (main-credit) DS9 characters: Ben Sisko, Jake Sisko, Kira, Odo, Dax, O'Brien, Bashir, Worf, Quark, and leaving out recurring characters. Toss Nog in as a regular as well I guess.

3 of them (Odo, O'Brien, Worf) have been entirely removed from the ongoing series, with a guest appearance each (and the Worf appearance an out-of-continuity duology).

2 of them (Ben and Jake) have become recurring/guest characters, and Ben was out of the series for the first half of the Relaunch.

So of the original 9, four (Kira, Dax, Bashir, Quark) have continued as primary characters, and one of those (Dax) will be removed from the series assuming the Relaunch remains in the post-Destiny timeline, making it 3/9. With Nog making 5 out of 10 or 4 out of 10, that's no more than half the cast who are still primary characters.

Meanwhile, several new/reintroduced characters (especially Elias Vaughn, Prynn Tenmei, Ro Laren, Sam Bowers, and Shar [although his continuing status is unknown]) have stepped up and made their presence felt. Meaning that around 50% of the cast of DS9:R are new, or at least new to the series. And the cast of minor/recurring characters has changed just as dramatically.

9 out of 12, or 75%, not so bad now, eh?

 

[Thrawn]

I am unhappy to have my captain and crew treated as they have been over the last several years by the editorial staff at Pocket Books. For years, they were ignored; when they returned, their captain was killed and the crew scattered. Of course, I am upset with the way the "relaunch" has developed and think it is a slap in the face to those of us who like Voyager just the way she was, thank you very much.

The Voyager crew is actually much less scattered, as of the end of Unworthy, than it was during Golden's novels. Everyone except Janeway, Tuvok, and Neelix are in fact back on the same ship and serving together, AND in the Delta Quadrant to boot.

This is *much* less scattered than DS9 or TNG.

 

[Lynx]

The Voyager relaunch died with Janeway. What we will have now is a bogus ship with a bogus crew.

Let's take a simple look at that. Of the original VOY characters Chakotay, Paris, Kim, Torres, Seven, the Doctor, Vorik, Neelix, and Voyager herself are present and accounted for in Unworthy. Gone but not forgotten are Janeway, Kes, and Tuvok; two have passed on and one has been serving aboard another ship for several years now.

9 out of 12 is amazingly good. Also factor in the setting: the Delta Quadrant has returned as well.

So how exactly do you figure this is a bogus ship and bogus crew?

First of all, Kes hasn't passed on but she is missing as well as Janeway, Tuvok and Neelix. They are no longer on the ship.

Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't Chakotay and Seven left on some "special mission", what ever that might be.

Vorik was never a main character.

So what we have left is Paris, Torres, Kim and The Doctor.

Plus a bunch of "replacement characters" which I have no interest at all in.

Now that's what I call a "bogus crew".

Not to mention that the return to the Delta Quadrant actually annoys me.

Some years ago I wrote some posts in which I stated that I wanted the old crew re-united and sent on some mission to the Delta Quadrant and a lot of people were against that, complaining about how unrealistic it would be to send them back there when they had spent 7 years to get away from the Delta Quadrant to go home.

Now the bogus crew is in the Delta Quadrant and I see no complaints.

 

[Defcon]

Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't Chakotay and Seven left on some "special mission", what ever that might be.

Spoiler: Unworthy

Only if you want to call Chakotay being the Captain of Voyager being on a special mission.

 

[Lynx]

^^

Spoiler: Chakotay

So he's still on Voyager? I got the impression that he and seven had resigned from Starfleet and the ship to go on some "special mission"

 

[Scout101]

^That's what reading the books will get you, I guess.

So, like was said, only Janeway and Tuvok are really absent. Kes and Neelix both left before the end of the show (although just barely, in Neelix's case), thought Neelix makes an appearance in the latest book. And you can still get your dose of Tuvok with the Titan crew, nex book comes out in a week or so.

So, whole crew minus 1 or two, a few new people to mix things up, and same ship, back in the same setting. Not so different, so it really reduces the list of excuses back to just complaining about Janeway, who had been absent from most of the previous books, and adrift with nothing much to do...

 

[HappyDayRiot]

^^

Spoiler: Chakotay

So he's still on Voyager? I got the impression that he and seven had resigned from Starfleet and the ship to go on some "special mission"

Spoiler: Chakotay

He resigned to help Seven but his resignation was not accepted by the admiralty and he is soon reinstated as captain of Voyager. Seven also returns to the ship in a civilian/advisor capacity, pretty much exactly as she was in the series.

 

[rahullak]

^^@Lynx
This is why some suggested that you might want to give the Beyer novels a read

Spoiler: Unworthy

Chakotay and Seven are back on Voyager. Chakotay is made captain. The Doctor, Torres, Paris, Kim are back. Neelix is back. Reg Barclay is back. Voyager is back and exploring the Delta quadrant with a much faster ship (70,000 ly in 2 weeks at max speed, I think) alongwith a fleet of Federation ships.

For the hows and the whys, you might want to pick up the Destiny trilogy, Full Circle and Unworthy.

 

[Christopher]

3 of them (Odo, O'Brien, Worf) have been entirely removed from the ongoing series, with a guest appearance each (and the Worf appearance an out-of-continuity duology).

Just to clarify, if you mean The Left Hand of Destiny, that's in continuity with the rest of the DS9 books, just a sidebar from the main storyline. "Out-of-continuity" implies something that isn't set in the same reality as the rest, like Crucible or the Shatnerverse.

 

[Lynx]

^^@Lynx
This is why some suggested that you might want to give the Beyer novels a read

Spoiler: Unworthy

Chakotay and Seven are back on Voyager. Chakotay is made captain. The Doctor, Torres, Paris, Kim are back. Neelix is back. Reg Barclay is back. Voyager is back and exploring the Delta quadrant with a much faster ship (70,000 ly in 2 weeks at max speed, I think) alongwith a fleet of Federation ships.

For the hows and the whys, you might want to pick up the Destiny trilogy, Full Circle and Unworthy.

But Kes, Janeway and Tuvok are missing.

Spoiler: And....

Neelix is only making a guest appearance, right?

However, if they bring back Janeway, I might at least give the thought of reading at least some book in he future some consideration. But at the same time I have a feeling that it would never be the same as it was in seasons 1-3. Something important is still missing.

But when it comes to Kes, I prefer my own stories. They would probably ruin the character even more with some "Fury"-related crap if they brought her back in those books.

As for Tuvok, well I really miss him too.

 

[Lindley]

My only problem with Janeway's end was that it happened in a fairly poor book.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

Something important is still missing.

Kes was never important. She could have been but her potential was never realized. TPTB didn't seem to know what to do with her. Hence her break-up with Neelix. Hence her power boost. Hence her crazy-space-lady exit. And ultimately her replacement by Seven of Nine.

 

[Thestral]

3 of them (Odo, O'Brien, Worf) have been entirely removed from the ongoing series, with a guest appearance each (and the Worf appearance an out-of-continuity duology).

Just to clarify, if you mean The Left Hand of Destiny, that's in continuity with the rest of the DS9 books, just a sidebar from the main storyline. "Out-of-continuity" implies something that isn't set in the same reality as the rest, like Crucible or the Shatnerverse.

Sorry yeah, I wasn't sure how to phrase that. "Time-displaced" maybe? Because IIRC the events of The Left Hand of Destiny take place before the events in the books published around it. Eh, point is it's a sidebar like you said.

But Kes, Janeway and Tuvok are missing.

However, if they bring back Janeway, I might at least give the thought of reading at least some book in he future some consideration. But at the same time I have a feeling that it would never be the same as it was in seasons 1-3. Something important is still missing.

But when it comes to Kes, I prefer my own stories. They would probably ruin the character even more with some "Fury"-related crap if they brought her back in those books.

As for Tuvok, well I really miss him too.

Boy am I glad Niners didn't whine this much about losing Ben, Miles, and Worf.

 

[Kataaran]

9 out of 12, or 75%, not so bad now, eh?

It really doesn't matter how many original characters are left if your favourite one is missing.

Count me as another avid reader of Trek books that will not not be buying the later ones. What I don't understand is if Voyager isn't your thing and you don't like Janeway then there are TOS, TNG, DS9, NF, TTN, etc books to choose from. Why wreck the Voyager stuff for folks that liked Janeway? There are plenty of non-Janeway options already but now there's nothing left for Janeway fans. Frankly it sucks and it's making me cry cus now I'm trying to kick the Trek book habbit.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

^^ But in so many words that's saying Janeway fans are owed Janeway books. Going back to sales and the Locus numbers, don't books without Janeway in them sell better than books with her? It's all about product and profitability.