Raffi's poverty
- Thread starter GMDreia
- Start date
Mandatory counseling for a civilian who hasn't hurt anyone or anything but her own body (which can almost certainly be easily repaired and was never in any acute danger of death) and her own relationships (which are no one else's business) is not most people's idea of a better world. Raffi should have access to whatever help she needs but it can't be shoved down her throat against her will.
It probably can if it’s doing anything to disturb the “paradise” on Earth. We don’t actually know the details of what happened between Raffi and others, especially Gabriel and his father. “My life over the last fourteen years has been just one long slide into humiliation and rage.“ That’s a strong statement, so why not portray that in detail and show how it interacts with the Roddenberry Box, where the initial premise would be (closer to) “There is no alcoholism in the Federation, or if there is, everybody is helped, or if they can’t be helped, they’re cared for” — just one idealistic notion after another.
Also, this is a controlling society that apparently won’t even let you become an expert in accumulating whatever credits are needed to own, say, some kind of a tricked out mansion on the ocean (Picard is probably more like a steward of that vineyard than the owner), so it’s not that difficult to imagine a much lower threshold for mandatory counseling, even if it’s only that particular person being hurt. As for family, maybe you can have the occassional fight, but suppose it happens too often or even becomes violent? Maybe her living in a remote location has something to do with that: if you can’t live in harmony with people close to you, and you don’t want other help, well, there is still this little piece of Earth you can go to.
But again, I’d really like to see the dots connected, not just stated one way here and a different way over there, as if it doesn’t matter what TNG did because now we’re PIC and we’re showing an alcoholic basically for the first time, and no, we won’t even write it so that Raffi begins to repair the relationship with her son by the end of the episode where they meet again. Let’s see that future society in all the little ways it’s different from ours, even if some problems remain the same in part or in full.
Also, this is a controlling society that apparently won’t even let you become an expert in accumulating whatever credits are needed to own, say, some kind of a tricked out mansion on the ocean (Picard is probably more like a steward of that vineyard than the owner), so it’s not that difficult to imagine a much lower threshold for mandatory counseling, even if it’s only that particular person being hurt. As for family, maybe you can have the occassional fight, but suppose it happens too often or even becomes violent? Maybe her living in a remote location has something to do with that: if you can’t live in harmony with people close to you, and you don’t want other help, well, there is still this little piece of Earth you can go to.
But again, I’d really like to see the dots connected, not just stated one way here and a different way over there, as if it doesn’t matter what TNG did because now we’re PIC and we’re showing an alcoholic basically for the first time, and no, we won’t even write it so that Raffi begins to repair the relationship with her son by the end of the episode where they meet again. Let’s see that future society in all the little ways it’s different from ours, even if some problems remain the same in part or in full.
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And was she doing anything to disturb paradise on Earth? Getting drunk and high in the privacy of your own home does not disturb others at all.
Why do you assume she packed her bags, left Gabriel and moved to Vasquez Rocks for a quiet life in 2385, no questions asked? I just gave a quote suggesting a potential tie-in novel at least. “One long slide into humiliation and rage.”
Engineers, badasses, and loners are usually played as drinkers. That's not alcoholism. It's just a tired character trope for that lot. The Scottish and Irish get dumped with that all too often as well so if the character of that group happens to be Irish or Scottish there will always be a bottle to hand. Again, just an overused trope.
This is all well and good, but Scotty (and various other references, too) clearly does establish that drinking real alcohol is still a thing in the federation. It would be rather ridiculous to just assume that no one is ever affected by the proven addictive nature of the thing. They may be rare, but I never once expected drunkards to be literally non-existent in this world anymore than violent offenders are in any way non-existant.
Humanity improving significantly as a whole doesn't mean, and in fact never could mean, every single human being better all the time.
Humanity improving significantly as a whole doesn't mean, and in fact never could mean, every single human being better all the time.
I always thought Scott was an alcoholic. He has quite a built up tolerance to be able to drink someone under the table. Also, using the Klingon Theragen solution to push the effect usually points to someone with a problem.
Maybe, but it never felt so to me just an overused character trait for ship's engineers. Alcohol tolerance is far more impressive in the alien that kept up with Scotty in spite of having never drunk alcohol before.
Exactly, just as we don’t actually expect biological evolution to have a notable impact on humanity in only 300 years. But it also isn’t interesting simply to handwave the Roddenberry Box as Federation propaganda combined with network TV restrictions, so instead I’m asking what exactly is different and how?
To me that’s pure speculative fiction: starting with the premise that the problem has been significantly alleviated (hence the lack of alcoholics in TNG through VGR), then imagining how exactly and what Raffi went through in the context of future Earth. PIC is just not interested in that part — she’s a recovering alcoholic, the audience can imagine what that means, now let’s get on with the anti-synth conspiracy. (After all, what could be more significant and unexplored than android rebellions?)
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While I have issues with a number of other elements of Ship of the Line (the Chains of Command vs Best of Both Worlds continuity error and the all-male Bozeman being the main ones), there is a conversation between Riker and Deanna that bears on this issue which sounds plausible:
"But it's not helping," Riker complained.
"No, it's not. And he's been cured of the alcoholism several times. We can do that in ten minutes. He's not simply physically dependent. He's just... grief-stricken."
Raffi clearly has a lot of emotional baggage at the beginning of the series, and I have not doubt that attempts were made to help her when she was still in the service, but once someone becomes a private citizen, there's very little you can do to force help on them unless they are an immediate danger to themselves or others, which she clearly wasn't.
"But it's not helping," Riker complained.
"No, it's not. And he's been cured of the alcoholism several times. We can do that in ten minutes. He's not simply physically dependent. He's just... grief-stricken."
Raffi clearly has a lot of emotional baggage at the beginning of the series, and I have not doubt that attempts were made to help her when she was still in the service, but once someone becomes a private citizen, there's very little you can do to force help on them unless they are an immediate danger to themselves or others, which she clearly wasn't.
Again, we only know where she ended up after a vague period of hell which led to such estrangement from her son they couldn’t even make the first step towards reconciliation in the episode where they meet again. Off the top of my head, I don’t recall it ever getting this bad on Star Trek. The one-episode trope applies to Spock and Sarek, Will and Kyle Riker, Jean-Luc and Robert Picard, Worf and Nikolai Rozhenko, Worf and Alexander Rozhenko, even Booker and Kyheem on DSC. (This doesn’t mean a relationship can’t experience any number of ups and downs during and between episodes, as with Worf and Alexander, but at least a part of a problem is usually worked out by the end of an episode.)
So what does that mean exactly? Aside from synthehol in replicators and an on-and-off ban on importing Romulan ale, what else is different? To what extent can anyone on Earth actually pick their preferred place to live and does an addiction problem factor into the available choices? Why doesn’t Raffi have neighbors at Vasuqez Rocks? I suppose she can legally live there, but nobody else would be motivated enough? If this were the Bermanverse, I’d expect Vasquez Rocks to either be uninhabited or fully developed for habitation and Raffi to be assigned a small apartment with all the basics. Let’s connect the dots from 2379 to 2399.
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If I understand it right, an alcoholic can't drink at all without falling back into addiction. Scotty got drunk, but was never addicted. If he was an alcoholic he'd be teetotal, off the ship, or cured by something that happened in the next 200 years
50 years? Between 2063 and 2113? I know Archer and Trip tell T'pol that it's gone as of 2151...
Thing is, maybe poverty has been eradicated, but I really think that people will still have personal problems, including addiction, and people may still have trouble coping. For that matter, plenty of people will still make poor life choices, because people have been peopling since people have been people.
You just aren't as likely to end up actually homeless or dead because of these issues. That's still a whole lot better than we have today, and by comparison, as utopian as I could possibly ask for. I don't really understand why people think addiction in the 24th century is far fetched.
You just aren't as likely to end up actually homeless or dead because of these issues. That's still a whole lot better than we have today, and by comparison, as utopian as I could possibly ask for. I don't really understand why people think addiction in the 24th century is far fetched.
First contact movie and TNG established that in the 50 years following first contact with the Vulcans, humanity eradicated disease, poverty, hunger, etc.
It makes sense as the other 40 years provide time for Earth to build cargo ships and send them on those long multi-year hauls we've seen.
Archer and Trip told T'Pol that they eradicated those problems in just 50 years following first contact... so it makes sense that by 2151 such problems wouldn't exist anymore.
People expect it to be cured with a snap.
I keep asking what has been done to alleviate the problem in the 24th century, but people seem to think I’m talking about eradication. A) Synthehol B) … C) … ?
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