Question about Spock Prime's character.

[xavier]

Actually, that was heavy criticized when Star Trek (2009) came out. In 2009. Five-plus years ago.

I do not think that was heavily criticized.

I see that you joined only recently. Believe me, there were threads upon threads criticizing Spock/Uhura (calling it Star Trek 90210, among other things, which is just ridiculous), and then other threads in defense of. And while a good chunk of those threads would appear logically on TrekBBS, they also popped up in other message boards I would frequent, even they weren't strictly Trek boards. But the fact that in inspired so so so much discussion on the board was proof alone that plenty of people had a problem with it.

majority of fans do not even care

The thing is, a majority doesn't need to get involved for something to be controversial, Trek or not. I can't possibly estimate percentages or ratios of how many posters were on one side or another, but people who go on TrekBBS aren't the majority of Trekkies; on the other hand, though, even small groups can raise a large ruckus, which can then lead to heavy, heavy criticism.

And then there's the other part of the equation: there are a number of fans who *do* care, but for them, caring means they are okay with or even support the idea.

Am being misunderstood. Yes it does look as if people criticized the teacher student thing but I do not think a majority cared. the relationship from the 2009 film did not stop them having a huge fanbase of new shippers and getting a lot of positive reviews from critics. Its too bad the writers messed their relationship up in the second film. that was the real 90210.

something that has been heavily criticized in nu trek is the carol stripped scene now that was heavily criticized by fans and critics alike that it ended up causing a big controversy in the media or the Kirk's death scene in Into darkness, the wrath of khan reharsh caused fan controversy.

I do not think the teacher student thing with spock and uhura from trek 2009 got that amount of criticism.

 

[borgboy]

Uhura also is in the Vulcan`s Soul trilogy set between the DS9 finale and Nemesis.

 

[mos6507]

vulcans do have stronger emotions than the humans

I don't buy that. I see the Vulcan near-self-destruction as being a direct parable of the Cold War era of standing on the brink of a horrific WWIII, something that Trek canon bakes into the timeline that we need to pass through before reaching utopia.

Also, if there's anything good to come out of Trek V it's a representation of a Vulcan who didn't repress his emotions in Sybok. While he was a radical, he never became a raving lunatic the way nuSpock did.

 

[Cyke101]

I do not think that was heavily criticized.

I see that you joined only recently. Believe me, there were threads upon threads criticizing Spock/Uhura (calling it Star Trek 90210, among other things, which is just ridiculous), and then other threads in defense of. And while a good chunk of those threads would appear logically on TrekBBS, they also popped up in other message boards I would frequent, even they weren't strictly Trek boards. But the fact that in inspired so so so much discussion on the board was proof alone that plenty of people had a problem with it.

majority of fans do not even care

The thing is, a majority doesn't need to get involved for something to be controversial, Trek or not. I can't possibly estimate percentages or ratios of how many posters were on one side or another, but people who go on TrekBBS aren't the majority of Trekkies; on the other hand, though, even small groups can raise a large ruckus, which can then lead to heavy, heavy criticism.

And then there's the other part of the equation: there are a number of fans who *do* care, but for them, caring means they are okay with or even support the idea.

Am being misunderstood. Yes it does look as if people criticized the teacher student thing but I do not think a majority cared. the relationship from the 2009 film did not stop them having a huge fanbase of new shippers and getting a lot of positive reviews from critics. Its too bad the writers messed their relationship up in the second film. that was the real 90210.

something that has been heavily criticized in nu trek is the carol stripped scene now that was heavily criticized by fans and critics alike that it ended up causing a big controversy in the media or the Kirk death scene in Into darkness, the wrath of khan reharsh caused fan controversy.

I do not think the teacher student thing with spock and uhura from trek 2009 got that amount of criticism.

Again, does it seem like it didn't get a lot of controversy because you're looking for comments NOW, five years after the fact? Time is a factor. People are going to talk more about Carol Marcus because that scene happened last year; discussion of Spock/Uhura teacher/student relationship was five years ago. When the first movie came out, the hubbub of that relationship and its dynamics caused comparable discussion as Marcus' underwear scenes, as did other topics. But it didn't/never went undiscussed/unnoticed/uncontested, not by a long shot.

Heck, people to this day gripe and moan about Star Trek V (a couple threads currently have it), and that's fine; but it's nowhere near the level of what it used to be 25 years ago when the movie came out simply because that much time had passed. It only seems like people complain more now because we have more access to information and pop reaction thanks to the internet. If that movie came out last year, of course it would dominate these threads.

 

[Malaika]

vulcans do have stronger emotions than the humans

I don't buy that. I see the Vulcan near-self-destruction as being a direct parable of the Cold War era of standing on the brink of a horrific WWIII, something that Trek canon bakes into the timeline that we need to pass through before reaching utopia.

Also, if there's anything good to come out of Trek V it's a representation of a Vulcan who didn't repress his emotions in Sybok. While he was a radical, he never became a raving lunatic the way nuSpock did.

Sarek: Emotions run deep within our race. In many ways more deeply than in humans. Logic offers a serenity humans seldom experience. The control of feelings so that they do not control you.​

if vulcans didn't have such strong emotions then why would they even need to control them so much in ways other races don't need to? (that is itself a feeling) why would they need things like kolinahr. I don't think it's merely a choice as much as it might be something that they think they need to survive.

The way I understood it, pre-surak vulcans were a very passionate race whose feelings were so powerful that they almost destroyed themselves. You see it in some remnants of their traditions like the way they handle pon farr with the whole 'mate or die' rituals. I also think that being natural touch telepaths complicate things a lot for them because they have the ability to not only experience their own feelings but also those of the ones around them. At one point Surak created a new 'religion' which contemplates the control of the feelings as a way to not let them rule oneself. If you fail, you try kolinahr to definitely purge every feeling you have.
Not all the vulcans agreed with that philosophy though (weren't the romulans themselves descendants of the vulcans? and they do embrace their emotions for example) , some thought that embracing their emotions was the most effective way to control them and more effective than running away from them. Spock's brother might have joined one of those groups and thus embrace a different philosophy.

anyway, it always made perfect sense to me that the vulcans do in fact have deeper emotions than the humans. If not, then they wouldn't need to be so obsessed about logic and controlling their feelings. No feelings = nothing to control and no need for all that discipline.
Perhaps the original series didn't develop this point to its full potential but I'm always puzzled by some fans idea that the vulcans don't have feelings or that Spock's feelings are just an expression of his human side.
I think the lack of control might be a result of that sometimes but I don't think that his feelings are only human. It's a misconception about the vulcans.

 

[mos6507]

I also think that being natural touch telepaths complicate things a lot for them because they have the ability to not only experience their own feelings but also those of the ones around them.

On the flipside, the empathic qualities of Deltans and Betazoids seem to lead those races in a peaceful utopian direction. So I don't think the telepathy piece fosters the idea of Vulcans being hot-heads.

anyway, it always made perfect sense to me that the vulcans do in fact have deeper emotions than the humans. If not, then they wouldn't need to be so obsessed about logic and controlling their feelings. No feelings = nothing to control and no need for all that discipline.

There are plenty of human belief-systems which fosters asceticism using similar rationales as the Vulcans. It's really kind of a Buddhist thing.

What we're arguing over is a qualitative generalization of whether Vulcans (on average) would be more emotional than humans without their vulcan logic. Personally, I think the underlying message or symbolism of Vulcans within Star Trek is served best by portraying their natural emotional state as the same as humans and not cartoonishly off the scale (aka KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!!!). This makes them more relatable. While the fighting rituals on Vulcan during pon farr may seem strange to the average tame american suburbanite, there are plenty of cultures on earth that are or have been as brutish as anything seen in those rituals.

 

[Set Harth]

Personally, I think the underlying message or symbolism of Vulcans within Star Trek is served best by portraying their natural emotional state as the same as humans and not abnormally off the scale (aka KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!!!).

How is aping the reaction of a human in a different movie to be construed as "abnormally off the scale" with respect to humans?