Question about "Dreams of the Raven"

[Extrocomp]

IIRC, the original brains were dissolved, but their memories and personalities were copied in the Ravens' secondary brains. Once the primary brains were cut off and the secondary brains took over, the personalities of the victims took them over as if they were the same people, but I'd consider them copies of the originals -- the equivalent of, say, Ira Graves's personality taking over Data, or Rao Vantika's taking over Bashir, or Warlord Tieran's taking over Kes. The only difference is that in this case the audience wants the dead person's "ghost" to "possess" its host permanently and effectively live again. It's quite different from Borg assimilation, where the original person is still alive, just with their personality suppressed.

Interesting take. So, if the original body's brain is dead, but the personality lives on in another body, you consider that to be a copy? What about the time when the Enterprise landing party were transformed into double-brained Kh!lict in Windows on a Lost World? The original body's brain was dematerialized by the transporter, so I guess it counts as "dead", except that it was restored when the alien transporter was reprogrammed to reverse the process. Or what about the time when Q turned the entire Enterprise-D crew into androids in the DC Comics series? I don't know how Q magic works, but the flesh-and-blood brains apparently disappeared, with emotionless positronic brains taking their place.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Really, most stories rely on some degree of coincidence. What are the odds that Pike's Enterprise would've been in the right place to pick up the distress signal from Talos IV? What are the odds that Kirk's best friend would happen to have the esper potential to turn him into a demigod, rather than just killing him or leaving him unaffected like most of the crew? What are the odds that a freak transporter accident would duplicate Kirk rather than just killing him? And so on. Fiction is about the cases that are extraordinary enough to be worth our attention. So it's biased toward the improbable.

But in this case, what's different to Pike or others encountering the avians from Talos IV again and in the case of a later crew, identifying them with the help of Pike's log entrees?

 

[Timo]

Really, most stories rely on some degree of coincidence. What are the odds that Pike's Enterprise would've been in the right place to pick up the distress signal from Talos IV?

Again, pretty good?

After all, the Talosians were out to get folks. Being siren-called would happen to somebody. We watched it happen to our hero, who became our hero exactly because he got hit by the siren call. There was no coincidence involved there.

It's different when the same hero hits adventure after adventure. Either this means that the galaxy is full of adventures, and any random sap would be up to his or her neck in those at any given week - or that our hero is a special adventure magnet. Both work just fine for Kirk, who roams space with the specific purpose of seeking out interesting stuff.

What are the odds that Kirk's best friend would happen to have the esper potential to turn him into a demigod, rather than just killing him or leaving him unaffected like most of the crew?

Very high. After all, we know those odds: Kirk had a crew of some 430, and two out of nine became gods (if we assume it's a choice between death and godhead, and nobody died of any other reason); on the Valiant, one out of seven did, out of an unknown total.

That Kirk's crew would have two espers tells us those are not rare things. That one of them would be a friend of his is not a matter of pure coincidence: for one, he actively surrounds himself with friends in the adventure-prone environment, and for another, he appears to be a bit of an achiever, meaning a friend might need to be an esper to keep pace...

What are the odds that a freak transporter accident would duplicate Kirk rather than just killing him?

Might be those odds were 100% sharp - after all, we never heard of anybody getting killed in like circumstances.

Fiction is about the cases that are extraordinary enough to be worth our attention.

Yup.

So it's biased toward the improbable.

Not necessarily. Cop shows rely on the banal and mundane, for that human touch. They just approach it from the angle of an interesting profession, one that faces the grittier and more attention-grabbing aspects of life daily rather than once in a lifetime. Likewise, a starship captain probably lives an interesting life by default and active and informed choice; he doesn't need chance in order to be supplied with adventure.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Damian]

Fiction is about the cases that are extraordinary enough to be worth our attention. So it's biased toward the improbable.

Honestly that even goes to other science fiction and as you noted other fiction as well. I mean, let's be honest, an 'average day of the life of...' is probably not going to be all that interesting. You need something unusual to get the audience's attention.

In some ways that's where suspension of disbelief comes into play. You just accept the overall premise. If it's a well told story then it's easier to overlook some things. If told poorly, well that's where we come in to pick it apart and say how unrealistic it is .

But Star Trek, or any other fictional enterprise, is probably not going to go very far if it doesn't take some liberties with reality. Even 2001: A Space Odyssey, as realistic as they tried to make it, took a few liberties to advance the narrative.

 

[Timo]

But again, those have very little to do with probability. If alien life left signaling monoliths in the Moon, then us finding those is neither probable nor improbable: it's inevitable. If they did not, it's again neither-nor: it's flat out impossible.

Unusual does not mean unlikely, perhaps not even infrequent. What is needed is alien. And that can be just about anything. Lawyers are alien to most people, thankfully enough. So are surgeons. Fictional things like starship skippers, even more so - but they are still a familiar sort of alien, merely an interesting profession among others we might take delight in observing.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

Interesting take. So, if the original body's brain is dead, but the personality lives on in another body, you consider that to be a copy? What about the time when the Enterprise landing party were transformed into double-brained Kh!lict in Windows on a Lost World? The original body's brain was dematerialized by the transporter, so I guess it counts as "dead", except that it was restored when the alien transporter was reprogrammed to reverse the process. Or what about the time when Q turned the entire Enterprise-D crew into androids in the DC Comics series? I don't know how Q magic works, but the flesh-and-blood brains apparently disappeared, with emotionless positronic brains taking their place.

I'm not interested in splitting philosophical hairs. I'm just saying I disagree with the analogy to Borg assimilation, because that's reversible, allowing the victim to be returned to their original human state, while being consumed by a Raven is more drastic and permanent, with only the mind surviving (in a way) but not the body.

However, I disagree with those analogies as well, since those were just rearrangements of the existing person, so I don't think they really count as copying in the same way. Also, they were narratively intended to be reversible, while being eaten by a Raven was narratively intended to be a horrifyingly final fate.

But in this case, what's different to Pike or others encountering the avians from Talos IV again and in the case of a later crew, identifying them with the help of Pike's log entrees?

Because there's no story purpose to throwing in such a random nitpicky reference. A coincidental event, like anything else, should only be included if it serves the needs of the story.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Because there's no story purpose to throwing in such a random nitpicky reference. A coincidental event, like anything else, should only be included if it serves the needs of the story.

What if these birds are an additional reason for the strict quarantine of Talos IV (and the possible death penalty)? Maybe they are really dangerous (Could be that they have similar abbilities as the Talosians or some of them are carriers of a deadly desease etc). This species is an empty canvas and could possibly be part of a main plot.

In this cases, a mention of Talos IV would make some sense imho.

 

[Christopher]

Please don't suggest story ideas in threads that authors participate in.

 

[Scout101]

This was the first Star Trek book I ever read, got me started on the whole thing. Not much more to add, just made me smile so wanted to chime in with that

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The original body's brain was dematerialized by the transporter, so I guess it counts as "dead"

The transporter does not kill you. It reduces your body to energy, transmits it to the destination, and reconstitutes you. You are not killed, simply moved to a new location.

If it were otherwise, then we wouldn't be able to (for example) see the transport process from the point of view of the person being transported, in real time (the Regula One transporter in TWOK, and TNG's "Realm of Fear", being but two examples).

As for the Ravens, now THAT I would consider being a copy. If you are eaten by a Raven, the resulting body will have your memories and personality, but it won't be YOU, as such. From your perspective, you are dead. Your own actual consciousness is destroyed, not transferred into a Raven body.